FW tank plant question.

[dual45s]

I've been enjoying my 20 gallon tropical tank for about 8 months now. The (now) wife got me an all-included type setup for a gift. I've been using a HOB Whisper activated carbon filter. I've only lost 2 fish, one due to an a-hole of a rainbow shark and one from an apparent suicide (that was not a fun thing to find after getting home from the honeymoon). The only problem is my plants seem to continually get worse and worse. Should I be using a different filter, adding something to the water, etc.? I have a florescent bulb on top, but the tank gets plenty of sunlight. My pleco does his best to keep the algae to a minimum so I've never had a problem there. Both fish are doing great and my parameters are spot on. Using RO/DI water from Wal-Mart. Thanks in advance.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Dual45s
I've been enjoying my 20 gallon tropical tank for about 8 months now. The (now) wife got me an all-included type setup for a gift. I've been using a HOB Whisper activated carbon filter. I've only lost 2 fish, one due to an a-hole of a rainbow shark and one from an apparent suicide (that was not a fun thing to find after getting home from the honeymoon). The only problem is my plants seem to continually get worse and worse. Should I be using a different filter, adding something to the water, etc.? I have a florescent bulb on top, but the tank gets plenty of sunlight. My pleco does his best to keep the algae to a minimum so I've never had a problem there. Both fish are doing great and my parameters are spot on. Using RO/DI water from Wal-Mart. Thanks in advance.
Plants generaly do need plant lighting. There are also plant food suppliments you can add for them to feed on. Plants are photosynthetic, so a good light source and ample amounts of carbon dioxide are what is required.

 

[dual45s]

I take it that fish respiration isn't sufficient for CO2. Do I need something specific for CO2, or does a simple pump/airstone do the trick? Like I said I'm pretty sure that sunlight is enough, it's in my living room which has essentially windows for a wall.

 

[swlover]

watch your pleco, they are known plant eaters, but they shouldn't really do to much damage if you have some algae. You can also buy some algae discs for him if you think he is not getting enough. Bubbler is also a good thing to have in your FW tank. I would stop using RO water and use reg tap water dechorinated with a little coarse grain salt added for fish, Dr. Wellfishes is what I use. Are your plants yellowing or just not growing? Don't get chemicals for your plants, natural way is always best for aquatic plants IMO, fish flakes contain most of the micronutrients that plants need. You should have a deep gravel bed also for plants, remove any floating leaves or dieing parts of plants. These are the things that have worked for me, I want to help you with your problem so any and all info about your type of plants you are using, are they in pots or rooted in gravel? How many hours a day are the lights on? How much do you feed on average and what types of food.

 

[dual45s]

Ok, here we go. Nosferatu (pleco) pretty much sticks to a large rock, I've never seen him on a plant. Doesn't mean he isn't, but just not while I'm around. Love to hear that news about the RO, it was getting to be a pain in the...uh...wallet? I've been pruning the dead/severely dying stuff, but am running out of stuff to cut. They don't seem to yellow so much as disintigrate until the skeleton of the leaves is flowing in the water. Some go brown and slimy. Gravel bed is about 2 inches deep, not in pots. Flourescent lights are on about 10 hours a day or so. TetraMin tropical flakes 2x a day, 2 pinches each time. I believe the bulk of my plants are Dwarf Swordplants. The leaves themselves seem to die but the plant grows stems from which another miniplant seems to flourish. The stems grow like crazy and I've cut about 6 or so miniplants from these stems and replanted them in the gravel. I don't know if this is correct, but I figured they would be cutting out light from the other plants. After cutting, they seem to die, so I'm going to stop doing this. I think the other plant is a Dwarf Rotala. These seem to be doing alright. Stems are nice and green, but most of the mid-level leaves have gone brown and I've picked them off. The tops leaves are green. I think I got everything you asked.
Thanks a ton by the way!

 

[swlover]

Leaves that look like skeletons are being eaten by something, yellowing means lack of nutrients..turning to mush means no minerals in water. Most of your fw plants use the minerals found in tap water. I think there are several things going on, yes your pleco is probably munching on the plants..maybe at night..could be another fish also..what do you have in there? Japanese algae eaters are plant eaters. I would put in more gravel or mirical mud..atleast 2 more inches if your plants are not in pots. Light is suffient. Get some of those discs for you pleco..some algae they don't eat, like the hard green/blue kind, can't remember the name of it. Catfish will keep your gravel stirred up..they are a great addition to any FW tank, although they might dig up your plants you can get plant clips or place large stones around them.. Snails will keep your plants free from algae which will choke out light on leaf surfaces..very imprtant. A bubble curtain or airstone is good to have in there. Also rocks..I use texas holey rock..they keep your PH stable, I have blackwater fish and need a higher ph so I find this works. If you are using chemicals to lower ph or make it higher, chemicals of any kind (accept for removing chloramine) will throw off the natural balance, IMO. You can remove your plants and set them up in a bowl or bucket for a couple of days near a window or better yet a strip light with tap water, airstone, add some fish flakes. This will give them a head start and maybe repair some of the damage. These are the things that I do and they work.

 

[gen1dustin]

It is probally your lighting, what is it? CO2 is great, but most plants will do fine without it. Fertilizers I don't use & know a lot of people who don't. I feel they're not nesecarry in my tank & everything is fine. Your water shouldn't affect your plants. You can use RO water in freshwater tanks, but you'll need to replace some things it takes out. I use RO on my FW tanks also, but I have an RO system. I use Kent RO Right & Instant Amazon.

 

[dual45s]

The only other fish in there is a Rainbow Shark. I'm not using any chemicals at all. I'll pick up some algae discs for the pleco. Dustin, it's a single flourescent tube, but in a well (naturally) lit living room.

 

[swlover]

Your lighting sounds suffient, plus they get filtered light from your window. FW plants need the right kinds of light. Natural daylight spectrum, like a 15 watt strip light is enough depending on the depth of your tankl, or specific plant gro bulbs. keep your bulbs changed out, just like you would on SW. aquatic FW plants do use elements found in tap water, without these elements they are robbed and will not grow. Here are what plants need to survive in a tank:
Beyond the "building blocks of life" provided by water and CO2 (oxygen, hydrogen and carbon), two other important nutrients are required: nitrogen and potassium. Nitrogen is usually available in sufficient quantities from fish waste in the form of ammonium (NH4+). Most plants will prefer ammonium but some will use the end product of the nitrification cycle, nitrate (NO3-). Ammonium is the preferred source since it takes less energy to use that form of nitrogen. A good test for ammonium levels is to monitor nitrates. If the nitrates are 0 ppm, you know that all the nitrogen is being used. This may indicate that some plants are starving for nitrogen. It also might indicate that a perfect balance has been achieved, but that is unlikely.
Potassium (K+) is also usually available from fish food. Unfortunately, potassium is difficult to measure in the water. If there are enough nitrates, there is usually enough potassium.
TRACE ELEMENTS
Trace elements are those things required in very small quantities yet are still vital to plant growth. These are taken in by the plant in ion form. The more important trace elements are sulfur (SO4--), calcium (Ca++), phosphorus (HPO4--/H2PO4-), magnesium (Mg++) and iron (Fe++).
Sulfur, calcium and magnesium are usually found in tap water. If the water has too little general hardness (< 3 degrees dH), calcium and/or magnesium may be in short supply. This can be remedied by adding calcium and magnesium sulfate in small quantities.
Phosphorus can be measured in the water and should be present in quantities less than 0.2 ppm of phosphate. If the nitrates are OK, phosphorus levels are usually also OK.
Iron may be present in tap water in the correct ionic state (Fe++) but will quickly oxidize to a form unusable by plants. To prevent this, chelated iron mixtures can be used. The chelator prevents the iron from oxidizing and makes it easy for the plants to assimilate. The iron concentration should be less than 0.2 ppm.
Other trace elements are needed in extremely small quantities and can usually be provided in fish food. Hope this helps

 

[dual45s]

::whistle:: I haven't taken chemestry since AP in high school. My nitrates are pretty steadily 0, and I tend to do large-ish changes when they're not. Apparently I'm overreacting. HA! I'll get back to you Swlover in a month or so when I've got all conditioned tap-water in the tank. That would be pretty fantastic if that was all it took. Thanks so much though.

 

[swlover]

I can almost bet the farm that is the problem...you may want to pick up some bannana plants too....they are almost fool proof & CHEAP! You can't loose with bannana plants and they send up runners like lily pads, great for small fry to hide...if you plan on having baby fish or even if you don't they still make great plants...you just can't kill them! Anytime you need help just whistle! I'm not an expert by any means but I have been at FW for a long time..I was 15 when I got my first tank...that was 26 yrs ago...ahhh I'm old! :scared:

 

[swlover]

Oh I forgot to ask...what other fish do you want to add? A shark and pleco are great scavengers, but you need some other fish in there to balance your little habitat. What are you interested in?

 

[dual45s]

To be honest I haven't given it much thought. Apparently my rainbow is a bit of a prick, and harrasses anything but the pleco. Since it's become only those two in the tank, it's been pretty bottom-dwellingly peaceful. I'm absolutely open to suggestions.

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by swlover
If the nitrates are 0 ppm, you know that all the nitrogen is being used. This may indicate that some plants are starving for nitrogen. It also might indicate that a perfect balance has been achieved, but that is unlikely.

I agree. Nitrate are nutrients for plants, and there should be measurable amounts of nitrate in FW tanks.

 

[dual45s]

Good call. Still looking for suggestions on other fish though... I've got no ideas. Somthing that can stand up to a

[hr]
of a 3" rainbow shark.

 

[dual45s]

Well, I feel fairly confident that I'm running only conditioned tap water now. Unfortunately, I feel that the plants were beyond repair and had to be tossed. So I'm ready to start fresh. I'll look into finding those bannana plants. I DID catch my pleco going to town on some leaves though. He's usually hiding so I haven't really noticed how big he's gotten, probably in the 5" range. Coupled with a 3"-4" rainbow shark they're still the only tenants, looking for suggestions both on plants and fish.

 

[ophiura]

I haven't read all of the posts -
What type of plants are you keeping? Several need quite intense lighting while others do not. In particular plants with very fine leaves often need more intense lighting. Many plants are sensitive to temperature and pH ranges...if you water is particularly hard, then this can be an issue. Planted tanks are often on the "soft" side with pH around 7.0 or lower. THis means, yes, RO water...or using peat moss in your filter.
There are special plant substrates as well that are very useful and will help with plant growth. You can add CO2 very easily with a simple setup with water, yeast, sugar, baking soda in a 2 liter soda bottle with an airhose and diffuser.
I also do not recommend keeping a pleco in a planted tank.
Do you see snails in the tank? Some snails may be OK, but plenty are not.
I personally recommend lower pH water for keeping a planted tank...what is the pH of your tap water?

 

[reefkprz]

if you want an algae eater in your planted tank consider several otto cats as they will not damage plants while eating algae off the leaves. as for my tank I used first layer laterite (because the GF likes white rocks) under the gravel. I highly reccomend planted aquarium substrates they are excellent. One thing I have noticed over the years is fish store people generally know jack about keeping plants in a tank(there are a few exceptions) make sure you research each species of plant and the environment it needs to survive, some hate cold water some could care less, (in my opinion plant should be treated just like fish when it come to learning how to care for them unless you like wasteing money wich I doubt) trace elements and proper lighting are definatly needed, ophuria mentioned above the cheapest and pretty easy route to provide C02.
one trick I have learned is you can use taller highlightplants or floating plants to shade low light plants, so you can still keep a variety and not have to go all high light or lowlight. heres a pic of my planted FW tank. got any pics of yours?

 

[ophiura]

I agree, it is a subspecialty much like keeping a reef, and few stores are really good at it. Each plant is very much like a coral in terms of its needs and when it will thrive or not.
In general for a planted tank I recommended soft water, wood (and or "blackwater" additives or peat), larger leafed plants (Crypts, anubias, various swords, vals, java fern and java moss) which don't need a tremendous amount of light. I do not recommend snails. Either algae eating shrimp or "O cats" as mentioned above are best for algae eating. These tanks are generally low flow systems which also helps keep pH lower (or CO2 levels higher depending on how you look at it).
The biggest mistake I made was not using a planted substrate in my tank.

 

[reefkprz]

another way to make your water more acidic is to boil oak leaves for a few seconds then drop them into your tank, (this may cause some yellowing or reddening of your water though dont use too many) 2 or three is usually sufficient, if you dont want the leaves in your tank you can always shred them and tuck them into your filter.
I hear you on the not useing planted aqwuarium substrate Ophuria, try keeping the brown laterite so you cant see it and still gravel siphoning the White rocks properly (on the rare occasion that I do it in the planted tank)