Gave Puffer Tank Maracyn -Bad Reaction!

[rarend]

Greetings folks, My wife Diane4 recently posted a thread about our puffer who was in Hyposalinity to combat Ick. Somewhere it was suggested that there can sometimes be secondary infections which occur and suggested either Maracyn or Maracyn II. We put the exact dosage in the tank last night. Diane noticed some coudiness last night afterwards. Today, the tank water was cloudy and green in color (?). Our little puffer was quiet, but we know that he is normally mellow. LAter today I noticed that had not moved other than to turn around and he has become very dark. -almost black. We did a 20 gallon (20%) water change to reduce the level of medication. So far there has been no reaction, and we fear for the worse! We need help! I expected my wife to make a posting this evening, but she is too distraught. We love our puffer very much. I feel terrible! Diane said the thought one of his eyes was cloudy, so we went ahead with this treatment. I wish we hadn't! Our tank is an overflow system, and I know of no way to introduce carbon flitration to remove this medication. We are helpless at this point! -and we do not know what to do next except another water change. :help:

-Rick

 

[beth]

It is always a bad idea to medicate a display tank. What is your water readings?? Any ammonia/nitrite due to antibiotic killing off nitrifying bacteria?

 

[rarend]

This may have been posted in Diane's thread about hyposalinity. The display tank also had live rock and some coral in it...not quite a reef tank, but very LIVE rock. We moved the rock to another tank and since our puffer is alone he stayed in this display tank which is into hyposalinity. I did not check the ammonia/nitrite levels tonight, but last night after medicating the tank, Diane did and the numbers were at zero. So, in a way we need to consider this tank as being the quarantine tank. We are at a loss about what to do next.
-Rick

 

[diane4]

I am so upset, I cried myself to sleep. Today, I will go out and by a block of carbon foam and put it in my sump so that water passes through it - hopefully that will removed the meds.
Before we put the Maracyn in, his appetite wasn't good, he would eat, but not much. A couple bites maybe. I had read that a secondary infection is common after an outbreak of ich, which is why I tried the meds. The medicine turned the water green.
I am so worried that we are going to loose him. I can't seem to keep fish alive. I am so upset. We have our puffer for almost 2 months, but thats it. I have since lost 2 harlequin tusk fish and a purple tang. It is so heart wrenching because I develope a deep love for my fish. I don't own fish because of their color or looks, I select species of fish for their responsiveness to me. My Ipo is such a button of cuteness. I cried like a 2 year old last night. Wailed.

I try so hard, read all I can, check the tank daily, spend money I don't have, and yet - I feel like such a failure. I am so heart broken.
I will recheck his amonia/nitrite/nitrate. All along, all his numbers have been beautifull.
If I loose him, I am not sure what to do next. I have thought of giving up on the whole saltwater ordeal - it has to be me doing something wrong. I am not doing something right, but I don't know what.
If I stay in it and try again, I guess I have to wait another 4-6 weeks to let any resident ich complete it's life cycle. Then do a huge water change (keep in mind my puffer is the only fish in the tank right now, I have no other fish) and then start all over with a UV in place. I am also looking into buying a GE Merlin RO filter (750 G.P.D.)
Merlin Reverse Osmosis system I am thinking of getting
Another link
I am so sad. My little puffer IS the very reason why I got into saltwater. I have spent, literally, thousands, I mean thousands of dollars on equipment - all for my little man, and I fear loosing him. I am so heart broken. Just crushed. Anyone, plesae - advise.

 

[beth13eaw]

:yes: I can totally sympathize with you. I have lost numerous fish, all to multiple outbreaks of ich. Right now my 55 gal has only inverts in it, all 8 of my fish have been removed to a 10 gal. Quarantine tank and are undergoing copper treatment. They will be in there for at least 6 weeks to let the ich die in the main tank.
Don't give up!....I too have spent a lot of money. Too much to turn back now!
I have learned the hard way that most meds say they are safe but every time I used any I ended up with DEAD FISH!

Do you have a Quarantine tank? Need to have one with copper in it for new fish to stay in for 2 weeks before putting them into main tank.

 

[diane4]

beth13eaw, thank you for your kind and sympathetic words.
You know, you are right!!! I have invested to much to far, to turn back now. I won't accept defeat, esepecially since I am so new at this. I am learning things all the time.
I do have a QT tank, it's a 50 gallon and it is currently holding my live rock. Running 1 power jet and a multi-directional power jet and a Aqua C remora protien skimmer. The QT tank is new and not cycled, which is why I chose to use it to hold my live rock which now has anthelia on it and I also bought green carpet mushroom too. So, a little bit different, I QT'd my live rock and inverts and using main tank as hospital tank. That works better for my df puffer because his main tank is in our living room where we can observe him better and keeping him there eliminates or reduces his stress he would have of moving to the QT tank, which is in the other room - that we are not in to often. So, in escence, yes - he is in a QT tank, his own. By himself. It's kind of like, at home treatment rather than moving him to the hospital. Hehh, us humans don't like going to a hospital or anywhere for that matter when we are sick, why would a fish be any different :happyfish
Anyhow, I haven't mentioned yet that my little guy made it through the night. That is a miracle. He was curled up last night and he turned jet black. Thought for sure he was going to die. The jury is still out on it, and we are not out of the woods yet...but the sun has shown through the woods. He is alive this morning, coloring is better and he socialized with me.
At 6 a.m. this morning, I checked on him and felt desperate to remove the meds. I did the 20% water change last night, of course making his replacement water the same 1.010 SG and PH is good a 8.1. This morning, I did something creative, until stores open up.
I had in the house a jar of loose carbon crystals. I took them and rinsed them well. I ddin't have a bag to put the carbon in, so don't laugh...(actually it's ok to laugh) heheh, I found a knee high stocking. Rinsed it. And poured the carbon into the stocking. Tied the end of the stocking. Rinsed the unit again. Then shapped it long to fit the portion of the sump where the foam normally goes. Layed the carbon on top of the foam pad that is there. so first it will hit the carbon, then through the foam, then over to the other side where the pump returns water to the tank.
Ya know beth13eaw, I really appreciate your words. It gave me hope and encouragement to hang in there. But damn, it is easy to think of giving up and reside to the fact that I failed at saltwater fish tanks because I can't keep anything alive very long, while others seem like it's no big deal.
Man, oh man - it is an expensive hobby, especially when I want only the best of quality. Yikes. All for my little Ipo man. When i get a chance, I will post a picture of him. He means so much to me. I never, in all my life - even just looking back to a year ago when I got into Oscars, thought that sharing your life with a special fish could develope such a love and bond.
I love my df puffer and my batch of Oscars. Oscars are just awesome fish. I have one guy that mimics our mouths when we say hello. He actually says hello. He is histerical. I love him equally as deep as my Ipo. I have really fallen head first into the fish hobby.
My husband and I have always had a tank. 29 gallons with tetra variety fish in it. Mostly black skirt hi fins. Peacefull fish, pretty and simple to keep. However, they never socialized with me. Then I aquired my 2 oscars that I rescued from a restaraunt that didn't care for them properly. Got a 90 gallon for them, and then all hell broke loose. Less than a year later, we now have 6 tank and will be buying another today to seperate 2 oscars that can't be paired. Oh well, we are all fish geeks...and love it. Can't help it.
Beth, in my most sincere words

- I appreciate your reply and words. It means alot. Sometimes I feel so alone in my saltwater efforts. You can buy a million books on saltwater fish, but they all just show pretty pictures of the different breeds, their origin and a few other general pieces of data about the fish. VERY VERY little about problem, diseases, common mistakes, etc etc. And if it weren't for this forum, I would not be where I am today. It is through this site that I learned about Hypo treatment and how to do it. And how to do fresh water dips. None of my books, and I mean NONE talk about that and how to do it. And believe me, I know all about pet books. I am a powerseller and I sell almost all petbooks.
Talk to you later.

 

[beth]

If you set up a QT tank and put fish in there before they go to the display, I promise you so many headaches and heartaches will be eliminated. First off, you will never ever introduce a contagious disease/parasite to you tank again....EVER.
I'm not saying fish do not get sick and die, but by QTing first, you address the worst of the worst situations up front.
Did you have LR in that tank with the M2?
What reference books have you been reading?

 

[diane4]

No, I took all live rock and inverts out of the tank before I started hypo and before I did any Maracyn. I am fine there.
Reference books, The super simple guide to Saltwater fish and I have looked at other salterwater books in stores, they don't say much about disease and treatments. I have never seen a book that talks about Hypo treatment either.
In fact, to add to the confusion, I went to a fish store today - 1 hour north of me, they have a website also - called absolutely fish. Clean tanks, no overcrowding, people seemed smart. I was watching a guy clean a reef tank and I asked him his opinion about whats been going on for us. He said that the Hypo stresses fish, and he usually just does hypo for about 2 weeks, then moves them into Copper treatment. He said you don't have to run the hypo 4-6 weeks course. Everything I read so far on the internet indicates 4-6 weeks, but why is it everytime I ask a person who has been into saltwater fish their opinion on something, I seem to almost always get a different answer or a slightly different answer. It makes it very frustrating for a new owner.
No where on the internet did I read that treating with Maracyn during hypo is bad. or should it be at a reduced dose because tank is on a reduce salt content. It is clear to both my husband and I that the 1 dose of Maracyn during hypo made the tank cloudy and nearly killed our fish.
And I also learned today that the protien skimmer we have (red sea berlin) is junk. I have yet to see that thing produce good foam. He was recommending deltec or there was 1 other kind, I forget which. So confusing - all I want is to have my fish live.
Now I am not sure how long I should run the hypo treatment. He has been in hypo mode since the middle of the month. Just a little over a week.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by diane4
No, I took all live rock and inverts out of the tank before I started hypo and before I did any Maracyn. I am fine there.
I'm afraid I disagree. You can not medicate a tank that has or will have live, inverts, corals. Hyposalinity, ok, you can remove the rock, inverts, etc., but it will be impossible to totally remove any medication from a tank. Antibiotics kills live sand.
Robert Fernner's "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" would be a good book for you to get and read, and it does cover fish diseases.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...97fb866aa9c179
Go to Amazon, you will get the reviews of this book there.
While the LFS folks have successes, and a great tank, they also don't regard their fish or any animals as "pets". I can tell you right now, none of them are going to cry themselves to sleep over a lost fish. They deal in livestock, not pets.
Copper will effectively kill ich. It is also a harsh medication that may cause other problems with fish. Thus, why use it when you don't have to? Hyposalinity for the short haul is perfectly safe. IT IS SAFE!
To try and get your display back to normal again, you will have to use some sort of carbon filter to pull the antibiotic out. Plan on doing a major water change...which with hypo, you will certainly do anyway.

 

[diane4]

Hi Beth, I have done already today, exactly what you suggested. I did a good size water change 20% and put the carbon in last night. The tank has already cleared up and I have not done anything more with the antibiodic. That stuff nearly killed him.
Today he is doing much better. He is squinting a little, I think his eye is a little cloudy - but overall, he is in better spirits today and he even had a couple little bites to eat. I am encouraged with that. I am not going near any medication. I am hoping that I can keep his water clear and clean, keep his salt and ph level stable and pray a lot that his own little imune system kicks any residual infection he has. Clearly, the single dose of Maracyn nearly killed him. I don't think the meds in itself caused all that, but with his already depleated state fighting the ich and him not eating well, the stress of being in hypo - all the changes has taken a toll on him. The thing I think he needs the most is stability, as much as possible.
I have been so stressed out over fear of loosing him, not knowing what is the right thing to do next. I feel like it's the same level of stress when I had a colicky new born. Your worried every second.
Beth, you are so right. People who run pet stores, view them as livestock, not precious little souls that have emotions, etc
My Ipo means the world to me. soooo much
Funny thing you mention the contcientious marine aquarist book - I just ordered a copy on e b a y and it is on it's way. I was looking at that book in the store tonight and funny thing, though - like all of the other books, it did not mention Hyposalinity at all. The book looks like it has lots of good information in it - but still, I think all books severely lack medical advice for fish. This forum has been the best source of information, even if you combined all books together.
I know that his own imunity should fight off any residual infection he has over this whole ordeal, and in fact, I have read on the forum that a fishs imunity should fight off ich on its own too. However, it can't fight it off very well if he is stressed and he isn't eating much. He ate some today, maybe about 3 bites of a piece of meat krill. But he could not eat the whole thing. When he was at his healthiest point he used to be able to eat 3 whole peices of kill. There were times when he would eat 2-3 whole squares of mysis shrimp, and he would gobble it up before it all disolved. His appetite is way down.
Can you suggest anything that has a scent or an attraction to it that any finicky or sick fish on his way back to health would be tempted with. I have cooked lobster tail for him and cut it into small bites. In fact cooked it in bullion cubes and sprinkle with garlic. By the way, he doesn't like garlic.
I have bought clams on the half shell already pre-cooked. I heated it up for him and he didn't want it. I feed him dry kill. I offer him all kinds of stuff, not sure what would really get him going.
People talk about offering them cockles, but I have yet to see what they look like, haven't seen them in stores, and I don't know the proper process for preparing it for him or how to serve it. He occaisionally likes some squid.
What do you suggest I offer him to eat and how should I prepare it. He doesn't seem to like garlic. I have read on posts that their fish love it, the scent draws their fish to the food, but not my buddy.
I am just madly in love with him. soo much. soo very much. Thanks again for your ocntinued posts and advice Beth. I thank you. What kind of fish do you have?

 

[rarend]

Yes, honey. I love that little guy deeply too. It was so great to see him pull thought the night and look so good this evening! h*

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by diane4
I know that his own imunity should fight off any residual infection he has over this whole ordeal, and in fact, I have read on the forum that a fishs imunity should fight off ich on its own too.
That is a not usually true. Fish rarely fight off ich....in tanks with excellent near-ocean quality environment, a healthy fish will coexist with the parasite. Bottom line, this fish may still be very sick.
Try target feeding him with meaty foods using a turkey baster.
Think about setting up a QT.

 

[diane4]

Beth, I have the rock and inverts in the smaller tank, and I have him in a tank by himself. He is in QT. When the rock rejoins the main tank, the smaller 50 gallon tank that the rock is currently in will become my QT tank to house any new inhabitants before they are put into the main display tank. Do you have any suggestions for what type of food to try for him?
I do think he is very sick, but I believe he will pull through. I am not as worried about using the main tank as the QT for him. I think it's worse to move a sick fish to a QT tank. Esepcially if the QT tank is in another room where we are not in all the time. The less you move him around and the less you change things in his environment, equals less stress, which in turn I hope results in healing.
I am so confused because everyone has a different opinion, it is very hard in this hobby to know what is fact or fiction. It is hard, because you wish you could just know what is the best thing to do next for your fish, for your specific fish and his health issue. It just doesn't exist out there. Very scary and very frustrating.
There are people on this forum that stated that assuming a fish is fairly healthy, their own imune system should fight off ich, and you disagree. How can a new hobbyist do the right thing when they can't find consistent answers. Very scary.
I have found that I will ask the same question of 5-10 different people or listen to 5 or so answers and usually will go with the majority or my gut. Because in this hobby, very little is consistent among peoples opinions. I wish the ownership of saltwater fish had more consistent health care or more importantly, disease treatment regiments.
hmmm, maybe, just maybe thats why books just don't talk too much about how to treat diseases. They do the easy thing of just talk about general maintenance procedures, setting up tanks, water changes and basic water params. not much else beyond that, zippo, zilch. Wish there was a merck manual for fish. Just isn't out there. It would probably all be in latin anyhow.

 

[scubadoo]

Send me an email and I'll get you some info that will be quite helpful
superidiot@cox.net

 

[diane4]

I have an interesting peice of information t share.
I was at one of my favorite fish stores tonight. I was asking the store owner about my situation for hypo and my dog face puffer.
My lfs said that most salt water fish do extreemly well in hypo treatment of 1.009 and 1.010 levels, however the puffers and the lion fish seem to be more stressed in hypo treatment than other fish.
Gee, maybe - just maybe, my little guy is stressing over the low salt. Also, everyone I talk to at different pet stores say that the hypo treatment is necessary for 2 weeks after the ich falls off the fish. He said the there was a study done in FLA over a 5 year time period and they found that hypo treatments can be administered successfully for 2 weeks at 1.012 or below to 1.009. The SG must be 1.012 or lower in order to kill the parasite.
I will search for this study done in FLA. Has anyone else heard about this.
I am making a particular fuss about just how long is necessary because I believe I have a type of fish or at least my particular fish is stressed in hypo mode and since I hear conflicting opinions about the legnth of time necessary for hypo, I am interested to learn the facts and keep his treatment time down to a minimum for his comfort.
Has anyone heard about the study done in FLA on ich?

 

[scubadoo]

I do not recall limitations on puffers for hypo.. The only article I am aware of is from the coopertaive ext of U 0f F and it does not even mention hypo.
More bad info from the lfs...in fact...there are studies that indicate this disease is adapting to lower levels of salinity.......
Adaptability of the parasite
Changes in some development features of tomonts were found after a few generations. These changes included differences from individual to aggregate-forming tomonts. Tomonts also changed from non-adherent or weakly adherent to adherent (Yambot, et al., 2003). The production of daughter tomonts by budding was reported in a cold-water variant of Cryptocaryon irritans (Jee, et al., 2000). Weekly adherent tomonts were found, in a seemingly distinct isolate, in extended tunnels within the epithelium (Diamant, et al., 1991).
Several new strains of Cryptocaryon irritans have been identified in Taiwan and other locations (Burgess & Mathews, 1995. Diggles and Adlard,1997). Highly aberrant and divergent isolates from Chiayi and Kaoshiung are of particular interest (Yambot, et al., 2003). The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.
New challenge
The geographical, temperature and salinity ranges of Cryptocaryon irritans are becoming alarmingly broader and isolates from Taiwan have widened the diversity of the species (Diggles & Adlard, 1997. Yambot, et al., 2003). These reports bring to light the fact that Cryptocaryon irritans is capable of adapting to new environmental conditions. This makes the need for new strategies and treatments for its control crucial. All previously reported strains of Cryptocaryon irritans could be destroyed by hyposaline conditions (Colorni, 1987. Rigos et al., 2001).

 

[scubadoo]

Dianne...do a search on beta glucan...I cannot link to the articles but it is something marine animal food can be soaked in. I am not certain how effective it is...or can be against disease...or once disease is present in an animal. it is an immune system booster...supposedly. I have never used it and I am uncertain regarding the effectiveness. Draw your own conclusions or prhaps others have experience using this and can post same.
I know hoow much you like that puffer. not sure this stuff works....not sure if it can hurt to try. Do your research.

 

[beth]

I'm sorry to disagree, but I just can not put much faith in beta gluten....maybe its because I am seriously allergic to gluten. Anyhow, I know of only one person that promotes that and I can't exactly figure out why. Gluten is a wheat/grain based protein. How in the world is wheat good for fish?? For the most part, its not even all that good for humans! Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

[beth]

Diane, what are your water readings, and how much water movement do you have in your tank? What are you using to measure salinity?

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Beth
I'm sorry to disagree, but I just can not put much faith in beta gluten....maybe its because I am seriously allergic to gluten. Anyhow, I know of only one person that promotes that and I can't exactly figure out why. Gluten is a wheat/grain based protein. How in the world is wheat good for fish?? For the most part, its not even all that good for humans! Anyway, that's my opinion.
I have never used it as well...but here is the info...draw your own conclusions...
Why use it?
Beta glucan has shown promise in trials against viral, fungal, parasitic and bacterial infection. It has proven in numerous scientific studies to be an immodulating agent that can enhance the major host defense mechanisms of the immune system. It is safe to use with any drug or chemical and it works synergistically with all current modes of therapy.
It has long been known that antibiotic treatment brings with it the risk of creating mutant or resistant strains of bacteria. Beta glucan could avoid this problem and is especially helpful when used in conjunction with antibiotics.
Pretreatment with Beta glucan means that the host can activate and proliferate defense mechanisms at a faster rate than invading organisms. This will give the animals a head start against pathogens. Fish that have been exposed to an ill tank mate should be given beta glucan to prevent the spread of contagious disease.
When should it be used?
Stimulating immune function prior to attack can prove to be especially effective against facultative pathogens. This would include infections such as those caused by Vibrio anguillarum, Flexibacter columnaris, Trichodina spp. and fungal infections such as Saprolegnia spp. Beta glucan may also help fish combat obligate pathogens such as the parasite Cryptocaryon irritans and viral diseases such as Lymphocystis.
Beta 1-3D glucan can be administered to newly acquired specimens during the quarantine period. Fish that have recently been netted, transferred or otherwise handled are stressed. Stress inhibits immune function. Beta glucan helps to alleviate the effects of stress and it can prevent illness. It helps wounds to heal more quickly. Beta glucan is useful for helping fish recover from exposure to toxins in the water. Beta glucan has also shown to give positive results against tumors, or abnormal growths.
Beta glucan has proven useful in mice suffering from lymphocytic leukemia that were infected with Staphyloccal Aureus or "Staph" simultaneously. This suggests that it may be employed in immuno-compromised animals to avert infectious and/or neoplastic disease (abnormal growths).
Animals that are obviously sick should also be fed beta glucan. Do not forgo all other treatments for fish diseases or disorders in favor of beta glucan. It is especially helpful when used in conjunction with other therapies such as antibiotics.
Beta glucan has applications for spawning and rearing fish. Immersing free-floating larvae (embryos) and juveniles of marine fish with beta glucan will make them more resistant to infection and improve growth rates.