Giving Up - Its not all it's cracked up to be

[djballistc]

Almost a year ago I started this journey called Saltwater Hobbyist. It has been a painful one. I followed all of the instruction my LFS gave me and things were looking great and things happened exactly as she said they would. We started with Damsels. One they are cheap and can handle some pretty nasty water conditions. All survived, so far so good. Tested water every week = Perfect. Months passed and then added Fiji Liverock from SWF.com, about 20-25lbs of it. Added it in, tank levels spiked a little and leveled off. All is good. Then added a coral banded shrimp and a hermit crab. All is fine still everything lived. Months more passed, tank encountered an algae bloom. Everything still lived over the month of trying to figure out what fixes that. Tried additives and other things. The only thing I found to take care of it was a diatom filter and it cleared it up in about 4 hours. The tank never got 100% crystal clear like it once was but the green was all gone. All fish still living. After it cleared I tested the water - all is well. I ordered more fish from SWF.com a pink tip hatian and florida condi anemones, 2 percula clown fish, a flame angel, naso tang, and fire shrimp. The flame angel went first - within 3 days. I removed it from the tank. Next the anemonaes died, removed them from the tank. Naso Tang after that and really wasn't paying attention but the Fire Shrimp just vanished. No trace of him anywhere and the only thing big enough to eat him would have been the Tang. The order and events as I have described are as close and I can remember. But today I am writing because I believe I have given it my best go. A month has passed since the last fish died and the water is going back to it's normal green state of the algae bloom. I have no idea why. It is no more than 8 hours of light to it each day. I have also tried cutting back on the light, that never worked. The diatom filter was the only thing that worked for me. But I almost don't want to do that again. This is costing too much..i can't keep buying fish but I am the type of person that likes to figure out why something happens and try to fix it...only this is a guessing game, i don't know what the problem is. I just want to be done with it. I like the hobby but not at this expense. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. My 75 gallon death chamber only now houses 1 pink damsel, 1 black domino damsel, coral banded shrimp, cleaner clam, lawnmower blenny, hermit crab, and green chromis (which I think is on it's way out).

 

[lionkiller]

A series of questions for you.
Do you use tap water in your tank?
What are your levels, salinity, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrate. Specific numbers please?
What kind of filtration do you have, sump, wet dry filter, undergravel filter, or any other filtration?
How much time elapsed from the first fish added to the last? a month a week, a year? What was the most fish you added at any one time?
What is your tank temp?
How long had your live rck been in the tank before you added fish again? Did you cure it?

 

[marineman]

I understand, battling algae is very fustrating and a saltwater tank needs to have a presetup plan to deal with it. These algaes thrive on the extra nutrients in your water. A VERY good skimmer and a large sump full of macroalgae well greatly outcompete the green algae for those nutrients and that will improve your tank conditions. The hobby is to much fun to quit after getting it started so try this before giving up!:jumping:

 

[djballistc]

Can you recommend a good protein skimmer then? Hopefully one that wouldn't incur me too much cost.

 

[djballistc]

A series of questions for you.
Do you use tap water in your tank? Yes but I have an all-house water filtration system. I am not using the R/O to fill the tank. That would take too long but the faucet is soft water with a lot of the impurities removed.
What are your levels, salinity, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrate. Specific numbers please?
Salinity = 1.022 - 1.023
Ammonia = 0.25 - 0.50
Nitrate = 20 - 40 (Not enough to kill fish from what I've read)
Nitrite = 0
PH = 8.2
What kind of filtration do you have, sump, wet dry filter, undergravel filter, or any other filtration?
I have an external canister filter called the Eheim Pro II, no sump or undergravel filter because I don't have gravel. I have sand. But not live sand. I have 1 powerhead in there too and a new spare but I didn't think i needed the second powerhead so i never installed it.
How much time elapsed from the first fish added to the last? a month a week, a year? What was the most fish you added at any one time? about 9 months and the most fish I added at one time was 4-5 not counting inverts. Inverts don't really affect the levels.
What is your tank temp? Temp is about 80 degrees
How long had your live rck been in the tank before you added fish again? Did you cure it? I have never added any more live rock than when I first started with it and thjat was 20-25lbs of it. I do have some fake rock in there that algae has grown on but not live. Did I cure it? I said I waited until the levels fell back down after they were spiked.

 

[lionkiller]

Ok, I see three pronlems that stick out to me, right off and the combination of all three will most likely be your problem.
The ammonia should be at 0. Any reading of this bad.
Nitrates also are a bit hig in my estimation. This can stress the fish out.
Also adding four to five fish at once will stress your bioload quickly, causing spikes and stress on your fish. In my estimation, this is what kills your fish.
Do a water change and get your levels to zero first. If I remember correctly algae will form if there are nitrates present. (Someone correct me if I am wrong). Creating a sump or refegium will help eliminate the nitrates as well.
Slow down on the fish additions, one a month is what I have learned works best. To much, to fast overloads your tank, no matter what size.

 

[masala4080]

how did you acclimate them to the new tank? That might have a little effect.

 

[marineman]

I use a deluxe rea sea prism skimmer on both my tanks and they have done well for me. Easy to setup, clean and use, just my opinion. Cost $180 a piece but can handle upto a 300g tank. There are a lot of good skimmers out there but this is the only one I have used. Except a seaclone skimmer that I thought was fairly good.

 

[mombostic]

What about those two anemones? On the anemone and clown fish forum, I saw a post about putting two different species of anemones together in the tank. Several people responded that it was possible for the two to wage a "chemical warfare" on each other and cause harm to each other as well as the other inhabitants of the tank.
Also.....I too used softened tap water to first fill my tank. I had nothing but algae problems until I finally cycled it all out with my water changes using distilled water. An ro unit is not going to happen around here, either, but not because of time. The time a ro unit would have taken is nothing to the time I spent doing my regular water changes and fighting the diatoms that were in my tank. Finally, they stopped growing. I guess I got it cycled out. I used Seagel--it has a phosphate and silicate remover in it--to try and help out.
Next, I got a good skimmer and took the pre-filter sponge off of it. I also stopped using the fiber stuff in my filter, because all it did was trap gunk and feed it back into the tank. Now I rinse my filter media about every three days.
Lastly, I cut back on my feeding. However, having said this, I have somewhere around 180-200 pounds of live rock in my tank, so this is something for you to consider carefully.
One thing I have noticed about this hobby--I know just as much as the people at the LFS, and it takes a long time to get things the way you want them. But, imo, it was well worth the wait.

 

[shawnhardy]

Agree with all the suggestions so far. Especially the one about the number of fish added at a time. You cannot really add more than 2 fish at a time without shocking your biofiltration system.
Here are a few more...
1. You need more live rock. Rule of thumb is 1-1.5 lbs. per gallon. If you can't afford it, but some base porous rock in and let your current live rock turn the base rock live. This will take a little time but it is a cheaper way to do it. Or get some type of wet/dry filter. I have a wet/dry filter and wish I had gone with live rock.
2. Get rid of your canister filter. It is not really helping that much. It actually can produce the extra nutrient levels that cause algae blooms.
3. You need more flow. I wouldn't be surprised if you had a very low oxygen level in your water. You should try to have at least 10x turnover per hour in your tank. So for you, that would mean 750 gallons per hour worth of powerheads. The surface of you water should be rippling somewhere. This provides for gas exchange in the water. Some people even point a weak powerhead at the surface to get more ripple.

 

[djballistc]

OK first...from what I have been reading I do NOT need a protein skimmer. I don't have corals or a reef tank. Second I was tallying up all of the fish I have lost. And all of the ones that cames from SWF.com are dead. Everything I got from my LFS is still alive. I just got back from speaking with my LFS owner and he asked me if i ever tested the water that came in the bags from SWF.com He said when he first opened his shop nobody would sell to him because he was so small so he had to order his fish from the online stores. What it took him 8 months to figure out was the Salinity in the water from the online stores was much higher than that he was keeping. I think I am not going to order from SWF.com again at least until I figure more out. Also my LFS owner said that it stresses the fish a lot when handled by someone like UPS so that is added stress. I am aware that the ammonia levels should be 0. Ever since I have had my tank they have never been 0. And from other postings the 20-40 Nitrate levels isn't really enough to kill fish off. A guy once wrote to me and said he has seen Nitrates up to 100's and still not lost fish. As for my canister filter I have seen them recommended as the best you can buy so I am sticking with that. I appreciate the responses it is well needed however I believe the root or solution to my problem is in here somewhere. I don't think some of the things your recommending are necessary so I have to do research and ask more questions and filter out the things I really do need to do. As I said before I am 99.9% sure i don't need a protein skimmer. And as for adding too many fish too quickly SWF.com doesn't really give you that option. They make you spend $100.00 on live fish at one time so you can't really not help that unless I simply don't order from them, which from here on out I will not do.

 

[djballistc]

I just read the part about the ripple in the water. I do have that at the top of my aquarium. I had heard you don't want too much current or the fish get tired and die off as well. I just checked my powerheads and they are AquaClear 30's and they pump 175gph each. I can add the second one but where do I place it? Also my canister filter does a fine job a punching out water. Do i really need more than this?

 

[djballistc]

Ok i have tallied up the water flow. With the 2 powerheads and my canister filter I have 522 GPH of water flow. How can I be certain that the fish won't get tired and die off? Where should I place these 2 powerheads? Right now I have the canister filter leads at each end of the tank. The one powerhead is at the intank end where my filter is and it is pointing towards the front of the tank. Should I move this one somewhere else? Where should I add the second one?

 

[djballistc]

Also to clear up the algae bloom again this time should I use that diatom filter which worked so well before? How can I get my tank clear. From what I have also read in dealing with algae blooms, water changes actually cause more harm. Everyone has told me not to do water changes to get rid of it. They all recommend the diatom filter to clear it back up. Suggestions welcome.

 

[greatfullreefer]

Originally posted by DJBallistc
OK first...from what I have been reading I do NOT need a protein skimmer. I don't have corals or a reef tank.
What do corals and reef tanks have to do with protein skimming? A PS removes organic waste from the water column and organic waste is produced by fish.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
Second I was tallying up all of the fish I have lost. And all of the ones that cames from SWF.com are dead. Everything I got from my LFS is still alive. [/B]
Adding 4 - 5 larger fish at once will cause death no matter where you get them from.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
I just got back from speaking with my LFS owner and he asked me if i ever tested the water that came in the bags from SWF.com He said when he first opened his shop nobody would sell to him because he was so small so he had to order his fish from the online stores. What it took him 8 months to figure out was the Salinity in the water from the online stores was much higher than that he was keeping. [/B]
Are you sure you want to listen to a guy that took 8 months to figure out that salinity will differ between suppliers? ..lol i know i wouldnt.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
Also my LFS owner said that it stresses the fish a lot when handled by someone like UPS so that is added stress. [/B]
Hmmm how do his fish get shipped to him???
Originally posted by DJBallistc
I am aware that the ammonia levels should be 0. Ever since I have had my tank they have never been 0. [/B]
Not should be 0 ..HAVE TO BE 0!!! the slightest trace of ammonia can and will kill fish except for possibly damsils.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
And from other postings the 20-40 Nitrate levels isn't really enough to kill fish off. A guy once wrote to me and said he has seen Nitrates up to 100's and still not lost fish. [/B]
I agree but i am sure he had 0 Ammonia.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
As for my canister filter I have seen them recommended as the best you can buy so I am sticking with that. [/B]
Again, false information canisters can be nitrate traps and the cause of poor water conditions unless constantly monitored and maintained.
Originally posted by DJBallistc
As I said before I am 99.9% sure i don't need a protein skimmer. [/B]
Why?

 

[greatfullreefer]

Originally posted by DJBallistc
I had heard you don't want too much current or the fish get tired and die off as well.
Think how turbulant the ocean is, i would like to know where you are getting your information as whoever is feeding you with it is either laughing or knows nothing.

 

[lionkiller]

Her is the way I see it. Get your levels down to 0 first before you try to add anymore fish. Have a couple LFS check your water for you and compare their results with yours.
Algae isn't a major problem and seems to be your main focus. It is a probvlem, but not what causes all your problems.
I believe if you get you levels right your algae problem will take care of itself.

 

[ophiura]

His logic is flawed. Those fish when living in the ocean live at specific gravity of 1.025-1.026.
Your LFS (and your own tank from the readings) keeps specific gravity abnormally low. Why? Parasite control. Very common for an LFS and probably most fish suppliers in reality. Very common in FO systems. But do you even know if this is the case from SWF to come up with this explanation?
Anyway, FWIW, fish have VERY LITTLE trouble with signficant changes in salinity. You can take a saltwater fish now and put it in freshwater for a few minutes (common treatment for some parasites) and it will usually be fine. I really do not think this is your problem...what fish did you buy at the LFS versus from online? That could also be significant.
As for the UPS thing - indeed, how does your LFS get his fish shipped to him? They are flown as air frieght usually, and if you think the airline people are handling them carefully.... :notsure:
A protein skimmer is potentially just as important on a fish only system as it would be on a coral system. And probably would be a significant help, IMO.
From what I can tell so far, there needs to be improvements in the filtration, lots of research, and more patience in order to make this work.
Cannister filters are FANTASTIC for freshwater tanks, but I have not seen the called "the best you can buy" for a saltwater tank, because they aren't. Many people use them successfully, but they aren't the best you can buy by far and unless cleaned regularly they can result in elevated nitrate readings...and possibly ammonia problems depending on feedings. If you clean it regularly (once a month at least for the foam pads)..then that is good.
There is definitely a problem if you have ammonia. What test kits do you use...have you had these readings verified by the LFS? However, you are right, the nitrates are not cause for fish death - but they WILL contribute to algae growth. How much and how often do you feed?
If you did add 4-5 fish at one time, that could be a problem in itself (especially if the tank is not biologically stable as the ammonia would indicate). That is potentially A LOT of fish to add at once unless it was 4 1" fish.

 

[loopy]

Hey, don't feel bad, I added two many fish too fast and..............croak. (Among other problems/boo boo's)
Keep your chin up, you can do it, heck, if I can.........anyone can. I won't tell you that I don't use a protein skimmer, but I have inverts..nope. I won't tell you a do a 5 gallon water change per week per someone's advice rather than have the skimmer. Working for me!
I, personally, like to buy my fish after I have been able to look at them. Not sight unseen. Not that trusting I guess. I also don't buy fish that have just arrived at the store...I pay for them, and go back in a week or two and get them so they don't get moved moved moved in a short short time. Has worked great.
Good Luck!!!:yes:

 

[mombostic]

I know some people do not change their water, but the majority do. I am not an expert. The only things I know for sure are the things that did or did not work for me, and I am telling you right now, I change 10% of my water each week and have for a long time, and my tank conditions have only improved. Regular cleaing and/or changing of filter media has been another important factor.
A guy at the LFS where I bought my tank and stand also told me I didn't need a protein skimmer unless I started a reef, but I had one a long time before I ever even considered a reef tank. It is an affordable model. Though some people say the particular brand I have isn't that great, you wouldn't believe the nasty looking gunk it takes, and has always taken, out of my water.
No one on here gains anything from you buying a protein skimmer or a power head. My overall experience has been that most everyone (with the exception of a few antagonists) just try to share their experiences and what they have learned from their time in the hobby.
Again, I'm not quoting any books or anything here, just telling you what has worked for me.