Glad to see you aren't wasting any time G.O.P...

bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
I'm still waiting to hear what these 'new bloods' alternative is to Obamacare. Nothing? Same Ole, Same Ole? I had to go to the ER the other day because I thought I had something stuck in my throat. Found out it was nothing more than an inflamed Uvula. Cost to find out it was an overblown sinus infection? $1500. And this was with a 'premium' healthcare plan through my wife's insurance that she pays $325/month for (this of course is up from $260/month she paid last year).
The Song Of The Year for the Reps is "Reduce the Deficit". What happens when that impossible goal does happen? You honestly think this will turn the economy around? This country lives on debt. Approximately 87% of Americans own a credit card. 95% of them have a running balance. 90% of homeowners have a mortgage and at least one auto loan. The average cost of going to a four-year college is $10,000 - $40,000/year. The average college student ends up with a loan debt of $100,000+ after graduation. That's the hypocracy of the Concervs wanting 'Big Government' to reduce spending. It's OK for them to run up humongous debt, then try to file Chapter 7 or 11 to wipe it clean when they can pay it back.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
If you don't know what the conservative answer to Obama care is you haven't been listening the last couple years.
As far as debt goes how is it hypocritical of the GOP to want to cut government spending? Difference between a consumers debt and the government is the consumer can't just write themselves a check when they need more money but if you want to compare the two situations...
What the government is doing would be like you having a first and second mortgage on your house, two car loans and 3 credit cards maxed out and are using the 4th to make up the shortfall every month. Instead of cutting back on expenses you add premium channels to your cable and buy a new living room set because it's 180 days same as cash. You also start buying grass fed beef. it's more expensive but much more healthy and you are sure business will pick up before you max your 4th credit card. Oh, did I mention you borrowed against your 401K's and need to replace the 50 grand you've taken out of your kid's college fund before she starts off to A&M in two years.
That is the federal budget.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354100
If you don't know what the conservative answer to Obama care is you haven't been listening the last couple years.
As far as debt goes how is it hypocritical of the GOP to want to cut government spending? Difference between a consumers debt and the government is the consumer can't just write themselves a check when they need more money but if you want to compare the two situations...
What the government is doing would be like you having a first and second mortgage on your house, two car loans and 3 credit cards maxed out and are using the 4th to make up the shortfall every month. Instead of cutting back on expenses you add premium channels to your cable and buy a new living room set because it's 180 days same as cash. You also start buying grass fed beef. it's more expensive but much more healthy and you are sure business will pick up before you max your 4th credit card. Oh, did I mention you borrowed against your 401K's and need to replace the 50 grand you've taken out of your kid's college fund before she starts off to A&M in two years.
That is the federal budget.
I have been listening, and all they'e done the last two years is talk in circles. They don't do anything but say how bad it is for the country, yet they provide absolutely no solutions. That's the typical mantra of a conservative. Blame everything on the Liberals, say they have a better plan, yet it never materializes.
The problem with your analogy is this is the same 'government' that has been doing this for the last decade. Show me where the last time you've seen the deficit significantly reduced. The best Clinton could do is balance the budget, and keep the deficit from going up for a year or so. Bush shot the defcit through the roof with the Iraq Conflict, and all we have to show for that is a bunch of happy turban heads that are laughing all the way to the bank on yours and my tax dollars.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354192
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354100
If you don't know what the conservative answer to Obama care is you haven't been listening the last couple years.
As far as debt goes how is it hypocritical of the GOP to want to cut government spending? Difference between a consumers debt and the government is the consumer can't just write themselves a check when they need more money but if you want to compare the two situations...
What the government is doing would be like you having a first and second mortgage on your house, two car loans and 3 credit cards maxed out and are using the 4th to make up the shortfall every month. Instead of cutting back on expenses you add premium channels to your cable and buy a new living room set because it's 180 days same as cash. You also start buying grass fed beef. it's more expensive but much more healthy and you are sure business will pick up before you max your 4th credit card. Oh, did I mention you borrowed against your 401K's and need to replace the 50 grand you've taken out of your kid's college fund before she starts off to A&M in two years.
That is the federal budget.
I have been listening, and all they'e done the last two years is talk in circles. They don't do anything but say how bad it is for the country, yet they provide absolutely no solutions. That's the typical mantra of a conservative. Blame everything on the Liberals, say they have a better plan, yet it never materializes.
The problem with your analogy is this is the same 'government' that has been doing this for the last decade. Show me where the last time you've seen the deficit significantly reduced. The best Clinton could do is balance the budget, and keep the deficit from going up for a year or so. Bush shot the defcit through the roof with the Iraq Conflict, and all we have to show for that is a bunch of happy turban heads that are laughing all the way to the bank on yours and my tax dollars.
And Obama has increased the debt faster and higher than Bush did without adding 2 wars.
Republicans proposed buying insurance across state lines like is done with other types of insurance. They also proposed tort reform, HIPPA reform to allow electronic tracking of health records etc. All that's just off the top of my head.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Did something need done with Heathcare...Sure I guess. Depends on who you are and what your situation is.
Here is the problem with your mentallity Bionic, and a lot of the rest of the country.
Lets call Heathcare a personal vehicle. The cost is the average MPG that vehicle gets you. Right now you are driving a vehicle that gets you 25MPG..not great, but not Horrible. You really would like one that gets you 60 MPG. So to acquire this, You take out a loan from a loan shark, and force your kids to eat Ramen to pay the interest on the loan because you can not pay any of the priniciple. But you don't take a loan out on the car, the loan is on your house. Do you see the assbackwards approach our country takes.
You hear about deficits...and how much money we owe. But the money we owe is not the end of the tale...that is just the beginning. The money we owe affects our diplomacy with foreign countries. We owe the most to China....how much leverage do you think we have with China about human rights, product safety, and trade issues in general since we owe them a buttload of money. Zero! Basically we can't strong arm or even negotiate from even ground. Right now it is advantageous to China To deal with us. But what happens when it is no longer advantageous?
For me, the deficit reduction is the single biggest problem for our country. Forget healthcare, abortion, gay rights, or any other issue you can think of. Our deficit can effectively shut down our country at the whim of another country. Kinda scary...do I think it will happen, not immediately, but unless we correct the situation, yes it will.
I don't mind the spending on things that go away, war as an example...as this is not a sustained spending project. What I do mind spending on is social programs, private jet trips for our leaders (The Leader of China flew on an Air China commercial plane, he doesn't have his own plane for world trips), raises for congress, and election campaigns (how much could we reduce the deficit if that money was used elsewhere). Touching on war, yes it is costly, but afterwards the cost goes away and the after effect usually benefits for the long term...not always, but usually. am I saying social programs need to go away? No....but a hard look at spending needs to happen.
The past 30 years spending has increased with each president....as our "leaders" promise more and more...we spend ourselves into oblivion. The Average american pays more attention to Reality TV stars...than what our elected leaders are doing and how they are spending our tax dollars.
If the Yen becomes world currency...which it looks like may happen...we will have bigger problems.
So harp all you want about Heathcare...and how you want this and want that Bionic.....Those problems do not affect this country in such away that it could be the end of our Country...The deficit and our spending does. Our economy would be much stronger without the deficit....sure, owe some money...but an amount that can be paid off in times of need.....Like your credit card...owing some money helps your credit score, owing to much money ruins your credit score and eventually makes you bankrupt.
The deficit under Obama is the highest it has ever been...even adjusted for inflation and dollar value. Clinton during his first four years had a deficit equal to The last Bush. Reagan had a deficit (adjusted again) equal to the last Bush for a couple years, during world war 2 we had a slightly higher deficit than Bush had (adjusted)....but no one has ever increased the deficit dollar amount in their first two years....even during the recession (even adjusted)....so that can not be used as an excuse. A 200 dollar deficit seems sustainable....400 is pushing it, 1.4 trillion is frigging ridiculous. Would you triple your debt right now? You personally bionic...so why are you fine with our government doing it?
The only things saving us right now is The deficit isn't a significantly higher percentage of GDP...which Obama has done a good job on of increasing our exports.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Reef, have you bothered reading the healthcare plan? It talks about cross-state insurance, Co-Op insurance that multiple small businesses could pool their funds together to get better plans, etc. I posted a link a while back in one of the Obamacare arguments hat listed exactly what would go into effect during the specific year. Try reading it before lambasting it.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354455
Did something need done with Heathcare...Sure I guess. Depends on who you are and what your situation is.
Here is the problem with your mentallity Bionic, and a lot of the rest of the country.
Lets call Heathcare a personal vehicle. The cost is the average MPG that vehicle gets you. Right now you are driving a vehicle that gets you 25MPG..not great, but not Horrible. You really would like one that gets you 60 MPG. So to acquire this, You take out a loan from a loan shark, and force your kids to eat Ramen to pay the interest on the loan because you can not pay any of the priniciple. But you don't take a loan out on the car, the loan is on your house. Do you see the assbackwards approach our country takes.
You hear about deficits...and how much money we owe. But the money we owe is not the end of the tale...that is just the beginning. The money we owe affects our diplomacy with foreign countries. We owe the most to China....how much leverage do you think we have with China about human rights, product safety, and trade issues in general since we owe them a buttload of money. Zero! Basically we can't strong arm or even negotiate from even ground. Right now it is advantageous to China To deal with us. But what happens when it is no longer advantageous?
For me, the deficit reduction is the single biggest problem for our country. Forget healthcare, abortion, gay rights, or any other issue you can think of. Our deficit can effectively shut down our country at the whim of another country. Kinda scary...do I think it will happen, not immediately, but unless we correct the situation, yes it will.
I don't mind the spending on things that go away, war as an example...as this is not a sustained spending project. What I do mind spending on is social programs, private jet trips for our leaders (The Leader of China flew on an Air China commercial plane, he doesn't have his own plane for world trips), raises for congress, and election campaigns (how much could we reduce the deficit if that money was used elsewhere). Touching on war, yes it is costly, but afterwards the cost goes away and the after effect usually benefits for the long term...not always, but usually. am I saying social programs need to go away? No....but a hard look at spending needs to happen.
The past 30 years spending has increased with each president....as our "leaders" promise more and more...we spend ourselves into oblivion. The Average american pays more attention to Reality TV stars...than what our elected leaders are doing and how they are spending our tax dollars.
If the Yen becomes world currency...which it looks like may happen...we will have bigger problems.
So harp all you want about Heathcare...and how you want this and want that Bionic.....Those problems do not affect this country in such away that it could be the end of our Country...The deficit and our spending does. Our economy would be much stronger without the deficit....sure, owe some money...but an amount that can be paid off in times of need.....Like your credit card...owing some money helps your credit score, owing to much money ruins your credit score and eventually makes you bankrupt.
The deficit under Obama is the highest it has ever been...even adjusted for inflation and dollar value. Clinton during his first four years had a deficit equal to The last Bush. Reagan had a deficit (adjusted again) equal to the last Bush for a couple years, during world war 2 we had a slightly higher deficit than Bush had (adjusted)....but no one has ever increased the deficit dollar amount in their first two years....even during the recession (even adjusted)....so that can not be used as an excuse. A 200 dollar deficit seems sustainable....400 is pushing it, 1.4 trillion is frigging ridiculous. Would you triple your debt right now? You personally bionic...so why are you fine with our government doing it?
The only things saving us right now is The deficit isn't a significantly higher percentage of GDP...which Obama has done a good job on of increasing our exports.
Where is all this mass spending you're talking about? The stimulus package given to GM and Chrysler? Paid back. Yea, some paid back with other 'stimulus money', but both companies are making a profit now, and those 'bills' will be paid off as well. GM is about to overtake Toyota again with the announcement of the Volt. You think 9.8% unemployment is bad? Let those two companies fail, and you'd have been looking at 11%-12%. Bank stimulus? Again, unemployment numbers skyrocket, and you'd have fallen into a Depression instead of a Recession, since the FDIC couldn't cover the losses to all the bank accounts that would have been liquidated.
The majority of programs that Obama has been spending on were programs he inherited. What he probably should have done is get rid of them. He tried getting rid of the tax cuts, and look how well that went.
War not a sustained spending project?
We're in what, year 10 of that little 'non sustaining project', with no real end in sight? We've spent over a trillion on that little diddy. There's a huge chunk of your deficit right there. We could close shop on Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, and you could cut 20% off the deficit right now.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354510
Reef, have you bothered reading the healthcare plan? It talks about cross-state insurance, Co-Op insurance that multiple small businesses could pool their funds together to get better plans, etc. I posted a link a while back in one of the Obamacare arguments hat listed exactly what would go into effect during the specific year. Try reading it before lambasting it.
Perhaps you should try reading it using your eyes and brain rather than heart. The Obama Health Care Abortion act doesn't allow individuals to buy across state lines unless they qualify for subsidized plans ran by the government which may. The law gets lambasted because it is a piece of crap, pure and simple. If it was so great why did it have to be passed the way it was? The leadership didn't allow the public nor members of Congress time to read the bill. What was in there they didn't want us to see? Oh stuff like the 1099 provision and other voodoo accounting nonsense to attempt to hide the real cost of the law.
Now all the sudden things like the 1099 provision being removed are supported by the Dems. If it's such a bad idea to begin with why was it put in there in the first place? To help sell the bill. How many other foolish provisions were included as accounting gimmicks? The double counting of the 500 million being cut from Medicare which might not end up being cut in the first place,
 
slice

slice

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354533
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354510
Reef, have you bothered reading the healthcare plan? It talks about cross-state insurance, Co-Op insurance that multiple small businesses could pool their funds together to get better plans, etc. I posted a link a while back in one of the Obamacare arguments hat listed exactly what would go into effect during the specific year. Try reading it before lambasting it.
Perhaps you should try reading it using your eyes and brain rather than heart. The Obama Health Care Abortion act doesn't allow individuals to buy across state lines unless they qualify for subsidized plans ran by the government which may. The law gets lambasted because it is a piece of crap, pure and simple. If it was so great why did it have to be passed the way it was? The leadership didn't allow the public nor members of Congress time to read the bill. What was in there they didn't want us to see? Oh stuff like the 1099 provision and other voodoo accounting nonsense to attempt to hide the real cost of the law.
Now all the sudden things like the 1099 provision being removed are supported by the Dems. If it's such a bad idea to begin with why was it put in there in the first place? To help sell the bill. How many other foolish provisions were included as accounting gimmicks? The double counting of the 500 million being cut from Medicare which might not end up being cut in the first place,
Don't forget the 159+ new regulatory agencies.
Also don't forget that so far, 220 of the biggest supporters of the bill, mostly labor unions, once they read the bill (we have to pass the bill to see what's in it), got waivers...
There will be mountains of unintended consequences.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354455
Did something need done with Heathcare...Sure I guess. Depends on who you are and what your situation is.
Here is the problem with your mentallity Bionic, and a lot of the rest of the country.
Lets call Heathcare a personal vehicle. The cost is the average MPG that vehicle gets you. Right now you are driving a vehicle that gets you 25MPG..not great, but not Horrible. You really would like one that gets you 60 MPG. So to acquire this, You take out a loan from a loan shark, and force your kids to eat Ramen to pay the interest on the loan because you can not pay any of the priniciple. But you don't take a loan out on the car, the loan is on your house. Do you see the assbackwards approach our country takes.
You hear about deficits...and how much money we owe. But the money we owe is not the end of the tale...that is just the beginning. The money we owe affects our diplomacy with foreign countries. We owe the most to China....how much leverage do you think we have with China about human rights, product safety, and trade issues in general since we owe them a buttload of money. Zero! Basically we can't strong arm or even negotiate from even ground. Right now it is advantageous to China To deal with us. But what happens when it is no longer advantageous?
For me, the deficit reduction is the single biggest problem for our country. Forget healthcare, abortion, gay rights, or any other issue you can think of. Our deficit can effectively shut down our country at the whim of another country. Kinda scary...do I think it will happen, not immediately, but unless we correct the situation, yes it will.
I don't mind the spending on things that go away, war as an example...as this is not a sustained spending project. What I do mind spending on is social programs, private jet trips for our leaders (The Leader of China flew on an Air China commercial plane, he doesn't have his own plane for world trips), raises for congress, and election campaigns (how much could we reduce the deficit if that money was used elsewhere). Touching on war, yes it is costly, but afterwards the cost goes away and the after effect usually benefits for the long term...not always, but usually. am I saying social programs need to go away? No....but a hard look at spending needs to happen.
The past 30 years spending has increased with each president....as our "leaders" promise more and more...we spend ourselves into oblivion. The Average american pays more attention to Reality TV stars...than what our elected leaders are doing and how they are spending our tax dollars.
If the Yen becomes world currency...which it looks like may happen...we will have bigger problems.
So harp all you want about Heathcare...and how you want this and want that Bionic.....Those problems do not affect this country in such away that it could be the end of our Country...The deficit and our spending does. Our economy would be much stronger without the deficit....sure, owe some money...but an amount that can be paid off in times of need.....Like your credit card...owing some money helps your credit score, owing to much money ruins your credit score and eventually makes you bankrupt.
The deficit under Obama is the highest it has ever been...even adjusted for inflation and dollar value. Clinton during his first four years had a deficit equal to The last Bush. Reagan had a deficit (adjusted again) equal to the last Bush for a couple years, during world war 2 we had a slightly higher deficit than Bush had (adjusted)....but no one has ever increased the deficit dollar amount in their first two years....even during the recession (even adjusted)....so that can not be used as an excuse. A 200 dollar deficit seems sustainable....400 is pushing it, 1.4 trillion is frigging ridiculous. Would you triple your debt right now? You personally bionic...so why are you fine with our government doing it?
The only things saving us right now is The deficit isn't a significantly higher percentage of GDP...which Obama has done a good job on of increasing our exports.
Where is all this mass spending you're talking about? The stimulus package given to GM and Chrysler? Paid back. Yea, some paid back with other 'stimulus money', but both companies are making a profit now, and those 'bills' will be paid off as well. GM is about to overtake Toyota again with the announcement of the Volt. You think 9.8% unemployment is bad? Let those two companies fail, and you'd have been looking at 11%-12%. Bank stimulus? Again, unemployment numbers skyrocket, and you'd have fallen into a Depression instead of a Recession, since the FDIC couldn't cover the losses to all the bank accounts that would have been liquidated.
The majority of programs that Obama has been spending on were programs he inherited. What he probably should have done is get rid of them. He tried getting rid of the tax cuts, and look how well that went.
War not a sustained spending project?
We're in what, year 10 of that little 'non sustaining project', with no real end in sight? We've spent over a trillion on that little diddy. There's a huge chunk of your deficit right there. We could close shop on Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, and you could cut 20% off the deficit right now.
You can't really believe that GM would have been shut down if they were forced to BK. They and Crapsler both would have came out of it leaner and meaner. What the government did was hand to companies to the unions as political payback.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354540
You can't really believe that GM would have been shut down if they were forced to BK. They and Crapsler both would have came out of it leaner and meaner. What the government did was hand to companies to the unions as political payback.
I guess that is a good sign if you run a business and have no concept of bankruptcy. Or the business legal world. Means you've never had to actually deal with it.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354540
You can't really believe that GM would have been shut down if they were forced to BK. They and Crapsler both would have came out of it leaner and meaner. What the government did was hand to companies to the unions as political payback.
You don't think? You've already lost Pontiac, Saturn, and Oldsmobile. How much leaner could they go? It's not just about the unions. Go ahead and let them file bankruptcy. That'll kill a couple hundred dealerships when they can't get inventory. Auto manufacturers make less than 10% of the parts that go into their vehicles. Wheels, upholstery, wiring harnesses, glass, drivetrains, etc. are all made by suppliers. Shut down for any length of time, and the suppliers go bankrupt with them. It's called the Trickle Down Effect...
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354766
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354540
You can't really believe that GM would have been shut down if they were forced to BK. They and Crapsler both would have came out of it leaner and meaner. What the government did was hand to companies to the unions as political payback.
You don't think? You've already lost Pontiac, Saturn, and Oldsmobile. How much leaner could they go? It's not just about the unions. Go ahead and let them file bankruptcy. That'll kill a couple hundred dealerships when they can't get inventory. Auto manufacturers make less than 10% of the parts that go into their vehicles. Wheels, upholstery, wiring harnesses, glass, drivetrains, etc. are all made by suppliers. Shut down for any length of time, and the suppliers go bankrupt with them. It's called the Trickle Down Effect...
They would have never shut down. Look at the list of auto sub suppliers that have filed BK. They are still in business. GM could bring back all 3 divisions they cut and still run with less employee than they have now if not for the rediculous contracts the union extorted out of them.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383327/glad-to-see-you-aren-t-wasting-any-time-g-o-p/20#post_3354540
You can't really believe that GM would have been shut down if they were forced to BK. They and Crapsler both would have came out of it leaner and meaner. What the government did was hand to companies to the unions as political payback.
Is that not exactly what happened? Regardless of how it was achieved? Granted they weren't able to kill the UAW like they would have in BK, but the most important thing with ANY company, is their product.
Both companies are on the rebound and bringing excellent products to market. GM has cut 5 brands total in recent years, you're forgetting Hummer, and they sold off Saab. GM is bringing excellent cars to market now, like the new Cruze, the image friendly Volt, the Buick LaCrosse and Regal, the Traverse/Acadia/Enclave crossovers, the Cadillac SRX crossover, and of course the Camaro. Chrysler is bringing a whole slew of new or redesigned vehicles, with not one car in their portfolio being significantly redone for 2011/2012. Their coming out with a 2nd generation of their hugely popular LX cars, the 300C/Magnum/Charger, bringing the new 200C, bringing back the Durango, a fantastic new Grand Cherokee, and new interiors in their other cars.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
They would have never shut down. Look at the list of auto sub suppliers that have filed BK. They are still in business. GM could bring back all 3 divisions they cut and still run with less employee than they have now if not for the rediculous contracts the union extorted out of them.
Suppliers still in business? Tell that to my neighbor. He worked for a supplier who made wiring harnesses for GM and Chrysler, and they shuy their doors last year. Toyota built thir new Tundra/Tacoma plant here in San Antonio, and a couple years back, they shut down for around 2 or 3 months due to low inventory requirements. Four surrounding suppliers closed their doors because of it. They weren't huge suppliers like Delphi, Visteon, or TRW, so just that short amount of down time did them in.
 
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