going to get a 400+ gl tank need advice

lear192

New Member
H
HEY I AM GOING TO BUT MY FIRST LARGE TANK IN 3-4 MONTHS. YES I HAVE HAD THE 29 GALLON TANK BUT IT HAS BEEN A WHILE. I COULD NOT PUT THE SIZE FISH IN IT THAT I WANTED SO I GOT TURNED OFF. NOW THAT I AM ABLE TO GET A LARGE TANK I AM LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT CAN GIVE ME SOME FEEDBACK ON WHAT MANUFACTURERS TO GO WITH AND WHICH ONES TO STAY AWAY FROM ON TANKS,PUMPS ,SKIMMERS AND SO ON.
I AM LOOKING AT A TENECOR 405 GALLON TANK
96 x 24 x 48 MARINE READY
I AM ALSO WONDERING ABOUT THERE UPGRADE TO THE SKIMMER AND PUMP WITH THE
Red Sea® venturi style protein skimmer
IS IT WORTH THE EXTRA MONEY?????
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP
DAVID
 

psusocr

Member
lear,
welcome to the board, youll get lots of great advice here. The first thing you should do use the search and look up all the topics pertaining to your post while waiting for replys, not only does it help to pass time but you can learn a great deal and usually find some answers before anyone evan replies!!
good luck
 

dogstar

Active Member
Lucky, lucky, 400 gls. NICE
Tenecor is good but.....
Add on packages by manufactures IMO are usually under size, wrong equpiment and over priced. You should look into useing like a 200gl. sump/fuge. Manufactures overrate capasities as well so use equip. rated well over 400gls. More money up front but much better in the long run. Do you want this to be a reef or only fish?
 

robchuck

Active Member
David,
Welcome to the message board! A 400+ gallon tank can be an absolute dream to own if it's well researched before purchasing, or it can have the potential to be a complete nightmare if it's put together on impulse.
I'm in nearly the same boat as you right now. I own a 29g reef and am about to upgrade to a reef in the 300 gallon range. This tank was originally planned to be setup last summer, but some hurdles got in the way. That gave me alot of time to research and check out quite a few local systems sized like the one I am planning on setting up. Seeing other systems in action and talking with their owners about their likes and dislikes was the most valuable info I collected. I fully intended to piece a system together, but in the end, I found a 300g complete reef setup for sale locally at a price too good to pass up (I'm actually picking everything up this weekend).
With that said, I'll take a stab at your questions with the perspective of someone about to set up a large system.
First, the tank will dictate how the rest of the system will be setup. Personally, I think you're making a wise choice going with acrylic in a tank this large; with solvent welding, a well built acrylic tank should last a lifetime.
You didn't mention what you plan on keeping, but from everyone I've spoken with, a tank taller than 30" or so is very difficult to work on, let alone provide enough light for. The consensus is that a tank with a front to back dimension greater than the height is much easier to aquascape and looks more natural.
Plus, a 48" height would require acrylic in the area of 2" thick, which would be extremely heavy and expensive. Also, consider the logistics of the manufacturer getting the tank to you. Shipping a 1/2 ton tank across the country is not cheap.
As I mentioned earlier, I picked up a used system locally, but had shopped around with many custom tank builders. Personally, I am not comfortable with a glass tank larger than 200 gallons, so the choice for me was acrylic.
Here is a list of acrylic manufacturers I got quotes from and some general opinions of them (note: I've seen most manufacturer's tanks in person):
-Tenecor (a reputable acrylic manufacturer, but their tanks are mass produced and not as nice as some others on the market; custom work is expensive; their Marine Ready setups tend to be undersized and overpriced)
-Envision Acrylics (best custom builder in my opinion; bends over backwards for its customers; decent prices; everyone I've spoken with said this is the builder to go with if at all possible
)
-Midwest Custom Aquariums (tanks aren't built as strong as other builders; good prices)
-Precision Clarity (I spoke with two owners of these tanks; one had an outstanding experience, the other had nothing but nightmares)

-Aquaquarium (small outfit local to me, but ships nationally; builds a solid tank and doesn't charge an arm and a leg for custom work; good prices; this is the builder I planned on going with before I found the used system)

Ultimately, I've found that the nicest systems are typically put together piece by piece by the owner after lots of research.
 

robchuck

Active Member
The most practical way I would advise setting this tank up is to use overflow(s) that lead to a large sump (75 gallons at the very least). All of your filtration and skimming can take place there and a decent-sized return pump (1500gph or so) is good for taking water back to the tank. Iwaki, GenX, and Sequence all make nice return pumps. On a tank this large, you only want 5-7x's the tank volume running through the sump per hour, otherwise, microbubbles and other little issues will become big headaches.
The rest of the circulation can be handled by power heads or a closed loop system (many of the tank manufacturers will help to design an efficient closed loop). For a fish only system, you might not need to add much in terms of supplemental circulation (just enough to keep detritus from building up in the tank), but if you plan on going for a reef, plan to use supplemental circulation to account for 2/3 to 3/4 of your total circulation. If you don't want a tank drilled like swiss cheese, there are powerheads available designed for large tanks (Tunze is the premier manufacturer of drop in water movement equipment; their equipment is VERY efficient and also mimics natural water movement better than any other piece of equipment I've seen.
 

robchuck

Active Member
Protein skimmers are the piece of equipment you'll get the most opinions on. Though most people will tell you the Red Sea Berlin skimmer you mentioned in your first post will be woefully undersized for such a large system.
Here is a list of skimmer styles and some suggestions for larger tanks:
-Airstone driven counter-current (these were popular before pump driven skimmers hit the market; they are very efficient and pull out a lot of gunk; the maintenance required is more on these skimmers than others; Anthony Calfo highly recommends this style; there is a renaissance of sorts with this style of skimmer taking place on one of the other message boards I frequent, though in monstrous proportions to how these skimmers were originally designed; these skimmers are almost always DIY projects, but can be made easily out of PVC)
-Beckett injected (these skimmers use a powerful pump to push lots of water through a Beckett injector to mix with lots of air; they'll give you the most raw skimming power, this style is probably the best bet for a system the size you propose; reputable brands of this style of skimmer are My Reef Creations, Barr Aquatic Systems, Precision Marine, and Aero Foamer; AquaC EV series skimmers could be cousins to Beckett skimmers, as their style of injection is similar and the skimmate results are similar)
-Downdraft (a lot of characteristics of these skimmers are similar to Becketts; they use powerful pumps to water through towers filled with bioballs where the crashing water mixes with air; ETSS is the leader in this market)

-Needlewheel (aka pinwheel, aka aspirating venturi, etc.; these models work well on small to medium sized systems, are very efficient, and are the easiest type of skimmer to maintain; the European recirculating needlewheel designs are relatively new to the US, but show alot of promise on larger systems; though with all of the pumps they require, there isn't much savings of efficiency versus the Beckett and Downdraft style skimmers; a user on this board by the name of Tony Detroit uses a European recirculating on his system and has nothing but good things to say about it; Euro Reef is the domestic leader of this style of skimmer, but some of the top brands are Geo's Reef, Deltec, H&S, and the top dog: Bubble King)
 

robchuck

Active Member
A big consideration often overlooked in large systems is how evaporation and the ambient conditions of the room are handled. A 400+ gallon system is going to evaporate quite a bit of water (as much as 10 gallons a day if HID lighting and open tops are employed). That will put ALOT of humidity in the air which could make it difficult to control things like the temperature of the tank, the room, or worse, CAUSE PERMANENT STRUCTURAL DAMAGE TO YOUR HOUSE. Employing adequate ventilation and dehumidifiers is in my mind a must when setting up large systems.
 

robchuck

Active Member
Lighting can also be a controversial subject, but regardless of what is kept in the tank, metal halide lighting is the most efficient for larger tanks. It would tank quite a few fluorescents to match what MH can do. Plus, you'll be able to use less total wattage of MH than fluorescent if planned properly using good reflectors.
 

lear192

New Member
HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM WOULD IT BE TO HAVE A TANK 48 INCHES HIGH????
MY REASON FOR A TANK SO TALL IS THAT I AM GOING ALL FISH. I AM NOT SURE ON WHAT KIND OTHER THAN I WILL HAVE RAYS IN THE MIX SOME WHERE. MAYBE A EEL OR TWO.
I JUST LOVE THE LOOK WHEN YOU SEE A WALL AND ITS NOTHING BUT TANK. I AM LOOKING AT PUTTING A FULL SAND BOTTOM WITH DIFFRENT SIZE ROCKS .
 

robchuck

Active Member
A 48" tall tank would be very difficult to clean and would be almost impossible to remove scratches from the inside if they were towards the bottom. Plus, the water pressure on a tank that tall will force it to bow unless it is made of extremely thick acrylic (2"+).
With animals like rays, it would be better for them to have a 48" wide tank versus a 48" high tank; so they would have more room to maneuver.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from acquiring a 48" tall tank, but rather laying out some of the drawbacks of having such a tall tank. I agree that there is nothing like looking into a tall tank, I just wouldn't want to be the person maintaining it!
 

psusocr

Member
wow a 48" high tank would be insane....for acrylic 2 plus inches in thickness i bet that would cost well over a 2 grand a sheet!!!
 

psusocr

Member
i never saw a sheet bigger than 4x8 in acrylic, so i guess if you use 4 of those you would be alright. Come to think of it i never saw acrylic thicker than 1"...it must be CRAZY
also i bet this tank would cost somewere around 6 to 7 thousand to build it yourself> to get this thing built would prolly be well over 20 grand
i wish i had the money you got!!!!!!

i may be wrong, just tryin to do some math, but someone gimmie some kinda quotes please!! im soo interested now, for this could be my next build!!! i wouldnt go over 2 feet high though IMO
 

dogstar

Active Member
They make sheets 10 feet. and you can buy 350g to 450g for around $ 4000 from costom bulders but then theres shipping and supporting and plumming and filters and lights and and and....
yea, prbly $10,000 and sand and rocks and fish and and onther $5000, lets do it
 

lear192

New Member
YES I HAVE 10,000 RESERVED FOR EVERYTHING MINUS FISH SO I THINK I WILL BE IN THAT BALL PARK.
I AM NOW LOOKING AT A 96X30X36 INSTEAD OF THE 96X24X48 BECAUSE LIKE SOMEONE SAID I DO WANT RAYS AND THATS MORE ROOM ON THE FLOOR OF THE TANK FOR THEM.
HOW DOES EVERYONE FEEL ABOUT GLASS VERSES ACRLIC
HAVE TALKED WITH SOME WHO SAY GLASS BECAUSE IT WONT SCRATCH AND HAS LONGER LIFE BUT OTHERS SAY THAT OVER 300 YOU NEED ACRLIC NO QUESTIONS ASKED????
 

dogstar

Active Member
yea thats a better foot print and w/ glass the bigger the tank the thicker the glass and less clarity because of the green tint thats in all glass except that real exspensive stuff ( forget what its called ) w/ arylic no matter how thick it is its still clear. Plus acrylic has better thermal insulating quality so the tempeture is more stable than with glass. Im not sure about rays but some of the larger animals can scratch acylic. Just some pros and cons......
 

acrylic51

Active Member

Originally posted by Dogstar
yea thats a better foot print and w/ glass the bigger the tank the thicker the glass and less clarity because of the green tint thats in all glass except that real exspensive stuff ( forget what its called ) w/ arylic no matter how thick it is its still clear. Plus acrylic has better thermal insulating quality so the tempeture is more stable than with glass. Im not sure about rays but some of the larger animals can scratch acylic. Just some pros and cons......

I agree with you on being able to purchase acrylic sheets in 10' lengths, with the clarity of glass if your spending that kind of cash you would opt for Starphire or Low E glass and you don't have that green tint.... Acrylic would definitely be much better for something of that size... Just think of the weight!!!! Acrylic is a better insulator as well....
 
Top