Going to try a LED build. Any advice is appreciated

acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefLEDLights http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/40#post_3409979
2Quills
Its good to have this discussion as my families safety is my primary concern.
I contacted the the engineering department at Mean Well from their their website. I asked them (not sure if he was a High School Tec Rep or Engineer with Doctorate but seemed familiar with the question) if there was a problem running 10 ELN60-48D or LPC35-700 drivers on a new dedicated 20 amp household circuit. Their response was there should be no problem. I then asked about the subject of harmonics and he said that he was not aware of any cases were numerous drivers on the same circuit caused a problem. This was well over a year ago and maybe you would like to follow up with a second call to see if anything has changed if I have time tomorrow I may make a second call and follow up.
For the record I fully agree on the 80% rule and also feel all our reef electrical equipment should be on fused power strips and where water is possible on GFIs. Its a lot better to pop a 15A breaker off a power strip than a 20Amp household one. As far as holidays go you are right about the unsafe practices committed by the general public. However I'm still not convinced 10 ELN60-48D on a fused surge protector tied to a dedicated 20 Amp circuit is unsafe in any way provided the drivers are set to the 1.3A they are rated for. By the way I've seen these draw up to 1.8A before they were adjusted.
Bill
You said some key things there........and the biggest word you said was "if".....You have to remember your dealing with so many variables, and might be fine in your case, but you also have to remember people will only read and hear what they want to hear, and they will run 10 ELN60-48D on a bare 15A breaker......How is that safe?????

In an early post you said about running them through your Apex.....Again assumptions being made that everyone will be running the same equipment....
With all rationale why would anyone want 10,12,15,18, ELN's/power cords hanging all over the place???? Bottom line if you need that many ELN drivers....it's not an efficient means or ways to build a rig......Cost alone, the ELN's have no place when compared to a bigger HLG driver?????? From a master electricians standpoint, shouldn't happen period!!!!!
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefLEDLights http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/40#post_3409979
2Quills
Its good to have this discussion as my families safety is my primary concern.
I contacted the the engineering department at Mean Well from their their website. I asked them (not sure if he was a High School Tec Rep or Engineer with Doctorate but seemed familiar with the question) if there was a problem running 10 ELN60-48D or LPC35-700 drivers on a new dedicated 20 amp household circuit. Their response was there should be no problem. I then asked about the subject of harmonics and he said that he was not aware of any cases were numerous drivers on the same circuit caused a problem. This was well over a year ago and maybe you would like to follow up with a second call to see if anything has changed if I have time tomorrow I may make a second call and follow up.
For the record I fully agree on the 80% rule and also feel all our reef electrical equipment should be on fused power strips and where water is possible on GFIs. Its a lot better to pop a 15A breaker off a power strip than a 20Amp household one. As far as holidays go you are right about the unsafe practices committed by the general public. However I'm still not convinced 10 ELN60-48D on a fused surge protector tied to a dedicated 20 Amp circuit is unsafe in any way provided the drivers are set to the 1.3A they are rated for. By the way I've seen these draw up to 1.8A before they were adjusted.
Bill
Thanks, I knew it was up there somewhere. The highest I had seen was around 1.5A. Agreed that if you're going to do it then a dedicated circuit is the way to go. Seeing something like 10 or maybe 12 ELN's really wouldn't bother me so much as seeing a young hobbiest out there who comes across a thread where another hobbiest was running 12-16 of these things, not realizing that they were split across 3 circuits and goes out and builds one without really understanding the fundamentals of what they're trying to achieve. Personally, I've pretty much moved on from the idea that harmonics is really the worst issue with building a fixture in this way. The fact that they do have capacitors offers at least some form of filtering. I just don't feel that a lot of this technology was innitial built with the idea of the general public was going to use them in ways that some of us are using them. A manufacturer makes a product that they sell to another manufacturer who builds devices out of there project expecting that they understand the technology and know how to use it. Kinda falls in line with the idea that guns can be dangerous, but they are only as dangerous or as safe as the person using it.
We're at a point in time now where there are better options available for achieving diy led builds on a larger scale without having to utilize several drivers. Higher efficiency and improved safety and more flexibility is what I'd be shooting for.
Appreciate your in put, Bill.
Thanks
 
reefledlights

reefledlights

New Member
Update from Mean Well
I talked to Leo from Mean Well USA and asked him if there was any problems running 10 Mean Well ELN60-48D on a single 20 Amp household circuit. His short answer was as long as everything is installed according to code there is no problem running 10 Drivers at once. When asked about inrush current he said that there may be a problem if the drivers all come on at exactly the same time. He went into detail saying that at 110VAC the inrush current is around 30A and can last up to 15 ms which is no problem. Having 10 come on at exactly the same time would give you 300A for up to 15ms and this could depending on the design of the circuit breaker cause it to trip.
Over all I feel more than safe running many drivers as long they all dont come on at exactly the same time.
Bill
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefLEDLights http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/60#post_3410142
Update from Mean Well
I talked to Leo from Mean Well USA and asked him if there was any problems running 10 Mean Well ELN60-48D on a single 20 Amp household circuit. His short answer was as long as everything is installed according to code there is no problem running 10 Drivers at once. When asked about inrush current he said that there may be a problem if the drivers all come on at exactly the same time. He went into detail saying that at 110VAC the inrush current is around 30A and can last up to 15 ms which is no problem. Having 10 come on at exactly the same time would give you 300A for up to 15ms and this could depending on the design of the circuit breaker cause it to trip.
Over all I feel more than safe running many drivers as long they all dont come on at exactly the same time.
Bill
Would agree with that. Certainly best to stagger them when possible to minimize wear and tear of contacts and things like that.
 
reefledlights

reefledlights

New Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/60#post_3410150
Still not an efficient way to build a bigger rig!!!! Again "if"!!!!!
The Mean Well 60-48D with two parallel strings of 12 LEDs is very efficient and cost effective. Yes a single dialed down to 700mA is not as efficient but still works well.
Your looking at driving 72 LEDs at 650mA for less than 100 bucks at 87% overall efficiency. The larger HLG drivers are about 15-20% more expensive and only 3% more efficient. The advantage is the 5A (HLG 240-48B) can run the LEDs in 6 parallel strings of 12 at up to 830mA the disadvantage is now you have 6-7 vs 2 parallel strings to manage. Personally I'm not too worried about a slight current imbalance if the build was done right, but have read about large current imbalances form builders using the HLG.
Overall The HLG 240-48B is a better option and in my opinion only a slightly more efficient way to a bigger build. "100 different ways to do it right and 1000 ways to do it wrong"
For ultimate efficiency the 96-200 watt Inventronics and TRC are also a very efficient viable option but your leaving the Class II realm and all stars must be well soldered as you have a much higher total forward voltage. I chose these along with the ELN60-48D for my personal 330 gal SPS tank.
Bill
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Reef.....I'm not doubting your knowledge on LEDs, but the bottom line when the average person looks at doing a big build, when you sit and compare $35.00 per small driver x 12 vs a larger driver right there is enough to make you scratch your head..... Then you have to contend and deal with 12+ or more cords.....Who in there right mind wants all that mess of wiring?????
And I did read what you had posted and googled as what MeanWell stated as well about the inrush and harmonics....Again there is no concrete evidence on either parties that it couldn't or can't be a problem.....Again the statement made was "possible" but only for a ms.....It only takes a ms for anything to go haywire......Then the statement goes to say "there hasn't been any reported cases".....Is someone really tracking this? Has it been extensively researched?????
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
I don't know guys. This is why I like to see independent studies done because you can't always trust the manufacturers word or specs that they post as being gospel. Case in point would be the recent study done on the manufacturers of power heads. Where virtually none of the manufacturers power heads performed close to actual specs. I go to the LFS store sometimes expecting to hear professional advice but that isn't always the case either.
Certainly running ELN's in parallel series is a much more efficient way to use them. Unless you're using them to drive xp-g's at around 1.3 amps. Cost wise in comparing ELN's to HLG's when running both in parallel series the cost can be virtually the same if not cheaper with the HLG's. This depends on where you're buying ofcorse but a case in point would be that a friend of ours has just picked up 2 of the HLG 240-48B's from P.S Emporium for $98.47 a piece and $214 shipped. I typically see the ELN's being sold for about $35 so three would cost ya $105 before shipping. Again, this depends on where we are shopping of course.
I really don't see many folks driving ELN's for larger builds in parallel because I think most folks with larger build needs are looking for a little more kick than just 650mA. But that's not to say that they couldn't. And if you're going to go with an equal amount of leds and strings then I don't see how dealing with 2 strings comes into play versus 6 strings because in the end you're going to have to balance the same amount of strings regardless. Balancing the fixture is considered important to some. And for those who are ending up with larger current imbalances probably don't realize there are better and worse ways of balancing strings.
You're still looking at more inrush current using 3 ELN's compared to 1 HLG. Which typically isn't life or death. Harmonics, it is what it is but the HLG's are built with PFC so that's just a bonus in my eyes. More power, slightly more efficient, more flexible in terms of dimming capabilities, less power cords and dimming wires to contend with...etc, etc. I don't want to knock the ELN technology to much because without it then DIY led may not have progressed to the point that we're at now if it weren't for those drivers. I just think that with newer stuff hitting the market there are more and more options available to us which equate to better and better ways to DIY than there were before.
I like the idea of the larger Inventronics drivers, just not sure i'd recommend them to everybody. I've seen people having issues with them when trying to run with an Apex. Have you had any issues with this Bill?
 
reefledlights

reefledlights

New Member
2Quills
Totally agree with what you said and with most of what acrylic51 has said. I do tend to recommend several two parallel strings of the ELN over the the HLG simply because a lot of people doing DIY Builds do not know ohms law or how to hook up a multi meter.. 6 or 7 parallel strings can be overwhelming for some. Mean Well recently lowered the total current of the ELN60-48D to 1.2A which makes large builds with the HLG even more efficient. I have seen problems with people driving their ELNs over 1.3A.
I have three 150 watt Inventronics and 8 ELNs on my 330SPS tank. All are controlled by a single APEX VDM without any problems. The only problem I had with the 150 watt Inventronics was a single cold solder joint which resulted in 18 fried LEDs. This was most likely due to the higher voltage as I did not have a problem earlier. Totally my bad as this was originally one of my first builds using buckpucks and a 24VDC power supply. With the higher voltage you have to ensure your soldering is 100%.
The advantage of the 150 watt Inventronics is you dont have to mess with parallel strings the disadvantage is it is not a class II driver.
Bill
 
mr btldreef

mr btldreef

Member
okay. so cryptics has asked for help from me and it is my pleasure to oblige. here is cryptics diy leds:






5 drivers you ask....that is for the red leds that are going to be added in the next couple of days. should be here monday. they are going to be dimmable also.
made quick connections for ac (still need to clean up), dc plug for dimmer, and at the fixtures for the strings of leds/fans.
 
cryptics

cryptics

Member
It was the only red being sold at reefledlights and I was already placing an order there. I didn't think there was much of a difference but didn't research the red's a lot. Is there much of a difference?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptics http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/60#post_3434754
It was the only red being sold at reefledlights and I was already placing an order there. I didn't think there was much of a difference but didn't research the red's a lot. Is there much of a difference?
Depends on what your goal is for using them I suppose. In terms of power the XR-C's are considered 2watt vs the 3watt Osrams. But it doesn't sound like you intend on driving them that high anyways. Other than that I think when one is going for a specific red led it's typically to target the higher wavelength which that the Osrams put out which is more beneficial for chlorophyll A in terms of photosynthetic response. Most folks tend to cover the lower end of the red spectrum just fine by using neutral whites. It's no biggie, was just curious.
 
mr btldreef

mr btldreef

Member
okay so i talked to couple people and they are saying the amount of reds that are going on the pendants it should produce a 10k color temp. 6red 12blue 12white each color dimmable should be okay. i might have to strategically place them so that they don't have a focused point of red. as of this moment the outer spread coming from each pendant is blue heavy since the optics are 65degrees and on the center of the pendants on the whites.
 
mr btldreef

mr btldreef

Member
i do not have, nor have i seen any uv leds on fixtures yet. i do understand that uv is important for coloring/keeping sps corals and other high light demanding corals. since 420nm has forever been an important wavelength for corals i had wondered if i should add 420nm actinics to supplement but i feel at this moment no need to. i have excellent growth from my sps and lps corals from my leds so i don't think i am going to put those uv leds on. i do plan to put greens and reds. i am currently toying vvith red 1vv leds to add some color. i am looking for something to pop out my reds/blues/purples in my corals as the fiji pink bulb or the coral vvave on a t5 setup does. then again this is just my opinion.....
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
The risks associated with UV make it a real tough decision. There are some low power strips sold as 403nm but I am not sure they would really add to the look. I found some LED flashlights that are supposed to be 395nm I think I'm going to order one and play around and see if I can see a difference.
 
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