Grounding Probe: Effective or a Scam?
- Thread starter beth
- Start date
dad
Active Member
Thanks for this thread. I used to argue with people about this all the time. Being a electrition for 24 years now, I thought I knew what I was talking about, lol
I am glad to have the backup,
I was just going through these threads when I came upon this one. SEE; some of us do read back!
Well, back to reading,,,,,,,,,,
I am glad to have the backup,
I was just going through these threads when I came upon this one. SEE; some of us do read back!
Well, back to reading,,,,,,,,,,
bobothewizard
Member
For $10, who cares, put one in. Definately cannot hurt.
vt4lifecuf
Member
so do i need a ground probe? i have two powerheads inside my tank
michaeltx
Moderator
WOW you dug WAY back for this one about 4 1/2 years LOL
My take on it if there is anything electrical in the tank take all the precautions that you can IE GFCI and grounding probes just to be in the safe side also look in the new hobbiest section here lately there have been a lot of near misses on disaster with burnt surge protectors and wiring issues.
I would deffinately take all the precautions that we can,
FWIW
Mike
My take on it if there is anything electrical in the tank take all the precautions that you can IE GFCI and grounding probes just to be in the safe side also look in the new hobbiest section here lately there have been a lot of near misses on disaster with burnt surge protectors and wiring issues.
I would deffinately take all the precautions that we can,
FWIW
Mike
scsinet
Active Member
I personally believe the "stray voltage" phemonenon to be more of a myth than anything else. It's one of those scientific-sounding terms that manufacturers of grounding probes use to lend validity to their products.
The fact is that unless your water is grounded, a single failed piece of equipment will not cause any harm to your fish. Many aquarists stick their hands in the water, feel a shock, and assume that their fish are receiving this shock continuously, when in fact it's the aquarist's hand (because he was grounded elsewhere) that caused the current to flow. Ergo, you can no doubt see how a grounding probe by itself, by grounding the water, can acutally worsen the problem should it occur, at least until the aquarist sticks his hand in the water, feels the shock, and shuts off the power.
Now, if the water is grounded or two pieces of equipment in the tank are failed (causing voltage to travel through the water between them), this can cause a continuous current flow through the water that could cause all sorts of problems, as well as shock any animal whose body is in the current flow, whether they are grounded or not. This situation however would be incredibly uncommon.
To hear the term "stray voltage" what pops into ones mind is little electrons swimming around in the water waiting for something to "bite." That's simply not true... a circuit has to be completed to a ground or a neutral for current to flow.
However, all that aside, a grounding probe and a GFI used together form a great safety team on your tank. The GFI will trip only when it senses current faulting to ground, which is what a grounding probe does, and will trip nearly instantly. That's why I always recommend a grounding probe with a GFI, but never a grounding probe by itself.
The fact is that unless your water is grounded, a single failed piece of equipment will not cause any harm to your fish. Many aquarists stick their hands in the water, feel a shock, and assume that their fish are receiving this shock continuously, when in fact it's the aquarist's hand (because he was grounded elsewhere) that caused the current to flow. Ergo, you can no doubt see how a grounding probe by itself, by grounding the water, can acutally worsen the problem should it occur, at least until the aquarist sticks his hand in the water, feels the shock, and shuts off the power.
Now, if the water is grounded or two pieces of equipment in the tank are failed (causing voltage to travel through the water between them), this can cause a continuous current flow through the water that could cause all sorts of problems, as well as shock any animal whose body is in the current flow, whether they are grounded or not. This situation however would be incredibly uncommon.
To hear the term "stray voltage" what pops into ones mind is little electrons swimming around in the water waiting for something to "bite." That's simply not true... a circuit has to be completed to a ground or a neutral for current to flow.
However, all that aside, a grounding probe and a GFI used together form a great safety team on your tank. The GFI will trip only when it senses current faulting to ground, which is what a grounding probe does, and will trip nearly instantly. That's why I always recommend a grounding probe with a GFI, but never a grounding probe by itself.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
To hear the term "stray voltage" what pops into ones mind is little electrons swimming around in the water waiting for something to "bite." That's simply not true... a circuit has to be completed to a ground or a neutral for current to flow.
those rogue electrons are nasty little buggers
not really going anywhere just hanging out waiting to get you.
To hear the term "stray voltage" what pops into ones mind is little electrons swimming around in the water waiting for something to "bite." That's simply not true... a circuit has to be completed to a ground or a neutral for current to flow.
those rogue electrons are nasty little buggers
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
those rogue electrons are nasty little buggers
not really going anywhere just hanging out waiting to get you.
It's funny because when I was writing this, I was thinking of "The Langoliers" (you know... longest movie ever) with those little things with giant teeth eating everything in sight.
those rogue electrons are nasty little buggers
It's funny because when I was writing this, I was thinking of "The Langoliers" (you know... longest movie ever) with those little things with giant teeth eating everything in sight.
salty blues
Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
The GFI will trip only when it senses current faulting to ground, which is what a grounding probe does, and will trip nearly instantly. That's why I always recommend a grounding probe with a GFI, but never a grounding probe by itself.
Actually, a GFCI works by sensing a current imbalance between the "hot" conductor(s) and the "neutral" conductor. The tank or circuit being protected therefore need not be grounded(no ground probe needed) in order for a GFCI to function properly.
The GFI will trip only when it senses current faulting to ground, which is what a grounding probe does, and will trip nearly instantly. That's why I always recommend a grounding probe with a GFI, but never a grounding probe by itself.
Actually, a GFCI works by sensing a current imbalance between the "hot" conductor(s) and the "neutral" conductor. The tank or circuit being protected therefore need not be grounded(no ground probe needed) in order for a GFCI to function properly.
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by salty blues
Actually, a GFCI works by sensing a current imbalance between the "hot" conductor(s) and the "neutral" conductor. The tank or circuit being protected therefore need not be grounded(no ground probe needed) in order for a GFCI to function properly.
We're both right, you're just misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.
I'm not saying the tank needs to have a grounding probe for the GFI to work, what I'm saying is that the grounding probe provides a ground path for the current to flow so that a GFI will trip in the instant a fault develops. If the water column is not grounded, the water will sit, electrically "hot," until the water becomes grounded somehow (such as by faulting through your body to a ground), only then will the GFI trip. If a grounding probe is there, the GFI will trip the instant the fault develops.
The reason why I advocate this is because of collateral damage. If you stick your hand into a hot tank protected by a GFI and you are grounded elsewhere (by standing on a grounded surface, touching a grounded light reflector, etc), you will often feel a significant shock - even though the GFI trips. The GFI trips in time not to cause you physical harm, but what about the harm that results from the involuntary action most of us would take, such as yanking your hand out of the water quickly and forcefully? In this reaction, you can smash overhead lights, knock equipment into the tank, topple rockwork, or even knock the tank over.
There are four ways you can run your tank:
- No protection (Dangerous)
- GFI, but no grounding probe (Safe)
- Grounding probe, but no GFI (Dangerous)
- Grounding probe AND GFI (Safe)
Actually, a GFCI works by sensing a current imbalance between the "hot" conductor(s) and the "neutral" conductor. The tank or circuit being protected therefore need not be grounded(no ground probe needed) in order for a GFCI to function properly.
We're both right, you're just misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.
I'm not saying the tank needs to have a grounding probe for the GFI to work, what I'm saying is that the grounding probe provides a ground path for the current to flow so that a GFI will trip in the instant a fault develops. If the water column is not grounded, the water will sit, electrically "hot," until the water becomes grounded somehow (such as by faulting through your body to a ground), only then will the GFI trip. If a grounding probe is there, the GFI will trip the instant the fault develops.
The reason why I advocate this is because of collateral damage. If you stick your hand into a hot tank protected by a GFI and you are grounded elsewhere (by standing on a grounded surface, touching a grounded light reflector, etc), you will often feel a significant shock - even though the GFI trips. The GFI trips in time not to cause you physical harm, but what about the harm that results from the involuntary action most of us would take, such as yanking your hand out of the water quickly and forcefully? In this reaction, you can smash overhead lights, knock equipment into the tank, topple rockwork, or even knock the tank over.
There are four ways you can run your tank:
- No protection (Dangerous)
- GFI, but no grounding probe (Safe)
- Grounding probe, but no GFI (Dangerous)
- Grounding probe AND GFI (Safe)
buckster71
Member
Stray voltage in your tank, must also be on the same lines of a lifted neutral in circuit. There is nothing that slaps your head harder when you are troubleshooting a circuit that has no action, but has the voltage needed for the circuit to work. Then you realize that your neutral is not hooked up, so there is NO AMPERAGE. After a few minutes of hair pulling you realize what is going on...scream at the $U#_@ electrican that wired the machine and move on.
By not grounding the circuit to neutral the potential energy is there, but no kinetic energy on the circuit. Like the dammed river. There is a heck of alot of energy there but doesn't do anything until the dam cracks.
If that, I wonder just in fact how much harm that potential energy is in effect to the livestock of the tank, since there really can't be any flow of electrons in the energy itself and by adding the grounding probe you are perpetually creating this flow.
I would be more worried about finding what is causing this potential energy and eliminating it, by either finding the cheap solder joint or (like in my case with a protein skimmer) ungrounded equipment and replacing it. If you don't I would think that it may be the cause of the direct short if the problem becomes more significant, which will really create alot of bad news. That is why posters like SCSInet is pushing for GFI outlets on your tanks!!!!!
I read a post earlier about a sensor and the ground probe. Your probe creates the ground as current passes between the two legs (or probes) + to -. The reading is based upon the difference in current. By having a place for it to go to, stray voltage will hunt for the path of least resistance, which is the ground of your probe. And will throw it off. So adding an additional ground probe in your case is essential. However, like I said before. Finding what is causing it first and fixing that should be formost, before adding a ground probe. EI. if it is your heater...replace it
By not grounding the circuit to neutral the potential energy is there, but no kinetic energy on the circuit. Like the dammed river. There is a heck of alot of energy there but doesn't do anything until the dam cracks.
If that, I wonder just in fact how much harm that potential energy is in effect to the livestock of the tank, since there really can't be any flow of electrons in the energy itself and by adding the grounding probe you are perpetually creating this flow.
I would be more worried about finding what is causing this potential energy and eliminating it, by either finding the cheap solder joint or (like in my case with a protein skimmer) ungrounded equipment and replacing it. If you don't I would think that it may be the cause of the direct short if the problem becomes more significant, which will really create alot of bad news. That is why posters like SCSInet is pushing for GFI outlets on your tanks!!!!!
I read a post earlier about a sensor and the ground probe. Your probe creates the ground as current passes between the two legs (or probes) + to -. The reading is based upon the difference in current. By having a place for it to go to, stray voltage will hunt for the path of least resistance, which is the ground of your probe. And will throw it off. So adding an additional ground probe in your case is essential. However, like I said before. Finding what is causing it first and fixing that should be formost, before adding a ground probe. EI. if it is your heater...replace it