Grrrrr! Microbubbles!

[debbie g]

I have tons of microbubbles spewing into the display tank from the sump. I thought they were coming from the skimmer, but I shut off the skimmer and still...tons of microbubbles.
If I add a third overflow to my tank, will larger amount of water entering sump help to get rid of the bubbles? Right now, I have the ball valve that pumps the water to the tank almost closed. I figured that that may be the reason for all the bubbles, too much turbulence? I hate to have to go through all the trouble of adding a third overflow if that is not the prob. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
Debbie G:help:

 

[golfish]

Originally posted by Debbie G
If I add a third overflow to my tank, will larger amount of water entering sump help to get rid of the bubbles?
It will probably make it worse. How about some more info
1) how big is the tank?
2) how big is the sump?
3) how many baffles do you have built into the sump?
4) What kind of return pump are you using?
5) are you using a stand pipe in your overflow?

 

[squidd]

One more question...
How high is the water over the top of the return pump...?
And do you see a little "tornado" or whirlpool of air being sucked in...?
(O.K that's two questions)...

 

[hnf2k]

i have found the best way to eliminate microbubbles is filter padding(i believe thats what its called...what goes on top of the trickle filter, the white stuff). if its coming from your return pump wrap your return pumps prefilter and wrap it completely in it. it allows water to pass through perfectly but stops just about all bubbles...hopes this helps.

 

[debbie g]

Gofish, Tank is 175 gal., sump is 30 gal, (but there is not 30 gals of water in it) I have one baffle in the sump and one of my two return hoses are flexible hose, the other is pvc hard plumbed. I am not using a standpipe.
Squidd, the return pipes are not under water, they are about an 1/8th of an inch above the display water. And I did have a little tornado in the sump where the water was being sucked into the pump. But even while I'm watching it and there is no tornado (the few minutes I have the water balanced right) the pipes are still spewing microbubbles.
HNF2K, Are you saying to put the filter sponge directly over the pipes that are shooting into the display?
The reason I asked if I should put a third overflow on, is the ball valve controlling the water to the main pump is practically closed because when it is open to the pump's capacity, it seems that the water doesn't overflow into the sump as quick as the water is being pumped OUT of the sump. I thought maybe all the friction of the water squeezing out of the tiny opening of the ball valve could be causing the bubbles.
When I look into the sump where the pipe is sucking in the water, there are no bubbles in there, the bubbles are being created somewhere between there and the actual return into the display.
Not to mention that my pump is not being permitted to work to its capacity. I believe it is supposed to pump 1200gph, or close to that. I hope I made sense.
Thanks for your responses.
Debbie G

 

[squidd]

Originally posted by Debbie G
...I did have a little tornado in the sump where the water was being sucked into the pump. But even while I'm watching it and there is no tornado (the few minutes I have the water balanced right) the pipes are still spewing microbubbles.
Debbie G
I'm going to run with this...
The little "tornado" over the return pump sucks air into the pump...
Once air gets into the pump body it will take a "few minutes" (maybe more) to purge the air out of its system...all the time spewing bubbles...
Then the water (level ?) gets unbalanced and sucks more air and starts the whole process again...
Sounds like you do not have the water level high enough over the return pump in the sump area...
You can either set the water level higher (if you have the room) or add a 90 deg. elbow to the inlet of the pump and point it down to suck water from the bottom of the sump...
I believe this is where the "bubbles" are coming from...
Now the question is "How do you raise the sump level and/or get the overflow(s) to return enough water to keep it up...
What size overflows are you using at present...? What size "bulkheads"...? What size overflow line...? and Are ther any Ts, Ys connectors, Valves or restrictions you may have in the piping from the overflow...?

 

[debbie g]

Feeling kinda dumb now...I have a Iwaki approx. 1200gph pump, and two 400gph overflows...hmm let me do some math...yup, I need one more 400 gph overflow, which would allow me to open up the ball valve completely so my pump can work to it's capacity rather than be closed so tight that it is creating so much turbulence. Therefore, keeping the sump at a proper level and not allowing for any vortexes. Sound right?

 

[hnf2k]

im not exactly sure as to what your problem is...where are the microbubbles coming from? are they in your sump and just getting pumped into your display?

 

[hnf2k]

also as far as the overflows, why use 3? that just looks a lot more ugly in your display. overflows go for pretty cheap on ----, maybe look into getting 2 1000 gph overflows, this way in worst case scenario one fails, you still have one running which should keep your tank going. your pump does 1200 gph at the head, right?

 

[golfish]

sounds like your putting too much water through a sump that's too small. You need more baffles
Rather then add another another overflow, slow the pump down even more. Or go get a filter sock and see if that will help.
You need more room or more baffles, adding another overflow will make it worse.
Youwe don't want to put a lot of water through a sump (5-10x turnover is ideal). Its just not needed, and, unless you have a HUGE sump its not going to happen. You get more bubbles and more noise. I wish people could see that. You want most of your flow from powerheads (Not me) or closed loops. Even the Tunze streams or Tamm SEIO's are nice.

 

[innsmouth]

Sounds like you do not have the water level high enough over the return pump in the sump area...
This sounds like the problem to me as well. Anytime I'm lazy with the top off water my return slams the tank with microbubbles. If it gets too low the pumps can malfunction and shut off or even burn up. Either way it can spell disaster.

 

[debbie g]

Squidd, how DO you raise the water level in the sump? I just tried adding a piece of acrylic. I made it slightly higher than the piece originally built in there, thinking the water would have to rise to get over it, but it didn't. I only just now noticed that my sump has "water level" written on it, and that is exactly where the water stays. If I try to make it higher, am I screwing something else up? I would really hate to have to get a whole different sump. Also, is the "baffle" the piece of acrylic that the water has to rise over? Anyone's help is so appreciated.
Thanks.
Debbie G

 

[squidd]

In a "properly balanced/flowing system" the water level in the tank is set by the overflow and will remain steady, any change in waterlevel (due to evaporation, top off, or leakage will show up in the final chamber of the sump, where the return pump sits...
This would be a good place to look for proper levels, adjusting levels and air entering the system...
However...
Before we can work on setting "sump level" you need to have a working system with balanced flow...
At this point, does your overflow keep up with your return pump output without excessive restrictions (ala ball valve) or "fluctuating" levels...?

 

[debbie g]

Nope, it doesn't. I even added the third overflow. Making that 1200 gph overflows to match the 1200gph pump. It is still sucking and slurping and making the vortex in the sump. Do you have anything for me to change/try? Thanks.
Debbie G

 

[squidd]

I'm trying to picture this in my mind (if you posted a pic it would help.. )
You have an Iwaki pump (external) drawing water through a bulkhead in the side of your sump, right...?
There is a line marked on the side of the sump that indicated "water level"...
How far below the "water level" line is the top of the bulk head...?
How far from the "water level" line to the bottom of the sump...?
Is there a "screen" or pick up tube or "extention" inside the sump...?
Did this pump come with the sump or did sombody add it to the system...?
Can you give me the model number on the pump and intake / output line size...?
Is this sump part of a wet/dry / Bio Ball tower type set up...?
Let's start with this to determine if you need to (are able to ) raise the water level in the sump or if we need to lower the intake in the sump area...(to eliminate the air sucking vortex)

 

[debbie g]

Hi, Thanks Squidd.
The pump is an Iwaki MD 100 rlt external water pump.
From the water level line to bottom of the sump is about 4 inches.
At this moment, the water is approximately one inch above that. (This is the first time I've seen it above).
There is no connection to the bulkhead inside the sump. I did temporarily try putting an elbow facing down in the sump to stop the vortex, but it seemed like it was just sucking all the more water.
I don't even have the protein skimmer hooked up at this point, because the extra draw on the water really brings the sump down. And at this point, I still don't have the ball valve to the pump completely open. Seems like just too much power.
From the water level line to the top of the bulkhead looks something like about a 1/4 inch, if that much.
I bought the sump "used", and bought the pump separately. I am not positive if the bulkhead in the sump is the original one, or the former owner put it in.
As far as the output line size, if you mean the size hose I have connecting it to the display...I think its 1-1/4 inch pvc, it splits off to a "t" so the water discharges into two different areas in the tank and there are about 5 elbows connecting each pipe from pump to display.
The sump presently is a wet/dry with the bioballs.
I thought I read that if you don't have your pump working to its capacity, that you can burn up the motor pretty quickly. So, I would really like to get that ball valve turned all the way on. If I need a bigger sump, I'd rather bite the bullet on that rather than getting a smaller pump.
So lowering the intake in the sump area, would mean virtually shutting the pump off.
I am so baffled by this...the math says 3 x 400gph overflows with a 1200gph pump should be perfect. I am so frustrated. Thanks so much for taking the time with me Squidd.
And P.S. I'll work on figuring out how to post a pic.
:notsure:
Debbie G

 

[squidd]

Slight problem here...:thinking:
My calcs say your Iwaki 100 is putting out more like 1800+ gph at head (assuming sump is under tank)...
If you want to keep all that flow to the tank(same pump) we're probably looking at a different/larger sump..
Or "diverting" a good bit of that flow back to sump, either through skimmer to sump or through a "fuge" to sump or just "recirculate" the water back to sump (waste of a good pump)...

 

[squidd]

You'll also have to lose the three 400gph and get two 1000gph overflows and then we can work with the old sump to get the water level up...

 

[debbie g]

Oh man, Squidd, its worse than even you thought. You figured it was about 1800gph. Right?
In itty bitty print on the pump, it says "max. capacity is 36.5 gallons per minute" which equals 2190gph! What am I gonna do with this monster?!?
I paid about $353 for this sucker! Is anybody else going to want a pump that size? Ugh.
Not to mention, now I'll have to wait for another pump, redo the plumbing. I'm just sick to my stomach.

 

[damndamsel]

Get creative with it. You have it use it. Use it also to run your skimmer (should knock down alot of the flow prob) maybe set up a small fuge to tee some off to. PVC fittings are cheap and easy to work with.
P.S. The elbows and lift of teh water to get back to your display is creating head loss. That max figure you posted is with no piping attached as in no resistance.