Gun bans dont work and here is an example

fish master

Member
Every where i look people are saying ban guns. I dont think people get it. Chicago has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation.just one example, just a couple years ago if you lived in cook county illinois you couldnt have a hand gun in your home. i think they have maybe changed that law in the last year but i could be wrong. iam sure people on here would know more about that than i. having the strictest laws that they have, they have the highest rate of crimes committed by illegal guns in the nation. People dont understand that if they ban guns that is only hurting the responsible people. criminals will still get guns. there are millions and millions of guns. and there probably has been millions sold since the school shooting a few weeks ago. I just got an email from a gun site saying they are sorry there site has been down but they have the largest backlog of sales in the companies history since the shooting. also the fedaral gov told illinois they had to give illinois conceal carry within 6 months. dont know where that will go now after shooting. My neighbor is a police officer. I was curious what he thought about conceal carry. these are his words not mine. he said he and and everyone in his department wants conceal carry. he said it would be a safer place if criminals knew that a citizen might be carring a gun. He said that its a known fact that states that have conceal carry, the crime rate has went down
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
And another slant would be that the non-criminals will then become criminals, because they/we are not going to give up 2nd Am. rights.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish master http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506756
Every where i look people are saying ban guns. I dont think people get it. Chicago has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation.just one example, just a couple years ago if you lived in cook county illinois you couldnt have a hand gun in your home. i think they have maybe changed that law in the last year but i could be wrong. iam sure people on here would know more about that than i. having the strictest laws that they have, they have the highest rate of crimes committed by illegal guns in the nation. People dont understand that if they ban guns that is only hurting the responsible people. criminals will still get guns. there are millions and millions of guns. and there probably has been millions sold since the school shooting a few weeks ago. I just got an email from a gun site saying they are sorry there site has been down but they have the largest backlog of sales in the companies history since the shooting. also the fedaral gov told illinois they had to give illinois conceal carry within 6 months. dont know where that will go now after shooting. My neighbor is a police officer. I was curious what he thought about conceal carry. these are his words not mine. he said he and and everyone in his department wants conceal carry. he said it would be a safer place if criminals knew that a citizen might be carring a gun. He said that its a known fact that states that have conceal carry, the crime rate has went down
No one knows the exact statistics because no one knows how many guns are out there, and who owns them. The problem with your officer friend's logic is that the "responsible citizens" aren't the only one's carrying concealed weapons. The optimum word is "concealed". For every responsible person walking around with a gun like that, you have a criminal doing the same. How do you tell who the good guy is, and whose the bad guy if everybody's walking around with a gun tucked underneath their jacket? You make it commonplace to carry a gun into any public venue, then a criminal now has full access to carry a weapon in to commit a crime anywhere he chooses. Do you allow them in banks? How about the grocery store? Some joker walks into a Walmart with a 9mm on his side, and nobody cares. All of a sudden he draws it and just starts this random shooting. OK, you have 3 or 4 other "responsible" concealed carry owners pull their weapons to counter. Will they know exactly who they have to shoot? Let's say this nutbag is in Aisle 12, a "good gun owner" is in Aisle 3, and another "good gun owner" is in Aisle 7. The Aisle 3 guy first spots the Aisle 7 guy with a gun. Does he shoot the guy, or wait to try and determine if he's "good" or "bad"? What does the Aisle 7 guy do? They may end up shooting one another, why the nutjob in Aisle 12 just sits there and laughs. Even if one or both managed to do the right thing and nail the nutbag, you still have someone dead or wounded. I don't care if it's 1 or 30, someone has been shot by another gun that may or may not have normally been in that situation if they didn't allow concealed carry to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted to do that.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
No one knows the exact statistics because no one knows how many guns are out there, and who owns them.  The problem with your officer friend's logic is that the "responsible citizens" aren't the only one's carrying concealed weapons.  The optimum word is "concealed".  For every responsible person walking around with a gun like that, you have a criminal doing the same.  How do you tell who the good guy is, and whose the bad guy if everybody's walking around with a gun tucked underneath their jacket?  You make it commonplace to carry a gun into any public venue, then a criminal now has full access to carry a weapon in to commit a crime anywhere he chooses.  Do you allow them in banks?  How about the grocery store?  Some joker walks into a Walmart with a 9mm on his side, and nobody cares.  All of a sudden he draws it and just starts this random shooting.  OK, you have 3 or 4 other "responsible" concealed carry owners pull their weapons to counter.  Will they know exactly who they have to shoot?  Let's say this nutbag is in Aisle 12, a "good gun owner" is in Aisle 3, and another "good gun owner" is in Aisle 7.  The Aisle 3 guy first spots the Aisle 7 guy with a gun.  Does he shoot the guy, or wait to try and determine if he's "good" or "bad"?  What does the Aisle 7 guy do?  They may end up shooting one another, why the nutjob in Aisle 12 just sits there and laughs.  Even if one or both managed to do the right thing and nail the nutbag, you still have someone dead or wounded.  I don't care if it's 1 or 30, someone has been shot by another gun that may or may not have normally been in that situation if they didn't allow concealed carry to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted to do that.
Criminals already illegal carry into those establishments if they are intent on committing a crime. The conceal carry allows registered law abiding citizens to carry for a form of protection. If a law abiding citizen is not allowed to carry they dont., your whole argument aboutbeing allowed to carry is stupid.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506772
Criminals already illegal carry into those establishments if they are intent on committing a crime. The conceal carry allows registered law abiding citizens to carry for a form of protection. If a law abiding citizen is not allowed to carry they dont., your whole argument aboutbeing allowed to carry is stupid.
This is the part of the equation the left don't seem to comprehend. What you are doing by allowing law abiding citizens to carry is leveling the playing field. There have been numerous studies that all reveal the same results. Criminals fear encountering an armed victim more than anything else, cops, jail etc.
 

fish master

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506769
No one knows the exact statistics because no one knows how many guns are out there, and who owns them. The problem with your officer friend's logic is that the "responsible citizens" aren't the only one's carrying concealed weapons. The optimum word is "concealed". For every responsible person walking around with a gun like that, you have a criminal doing the same. How do you tell who the good guy is, and whose the bad guy if everybody's walking around with a gun tucked underneath their jacket? You make it commonplace to carry a gun into any public venue, then a criminal now has full access to carry a weapon in to commit a crime anywhere he chooses. Do you allow them in banks? How about the grocery store? Some joker walks into a Walmart with a 9mm on his side, and nobody cares. All of a sudden he draws it and just starts this random shooting. OK, you have 3 or 4 other "responsible" concealed carry owners pull their weapons to counter. Will they know exactly who they have to shoot? Let's say this nutbag is in Aisle 12, a "good gun owner" is in Aisle 3, and another "good gun owner" is in Aisle 7. The Aisle 3 guy first spots the Aisle 7 guy with a gun. Does he shoot the guy, or wait to try and determine if he's "good" or "bad"? What does the Aisle 7 guy do? They may end up shooting one another, why the nutjob in Aisle 12 just sits there and laughs. Even if one or both managed to do the right thing and nail the nutbag, you still have someone dead or wounded. I don't care if it's 1 or 30, someone has been shot by another gun that may or may not have normally been in that situation if they didn't allow concealed carry to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted to do that.
Bio, i think your taking the conceal carry the wrong way. its to protect yourself.Not taking the law into your own hands and hunting down bad guys.
 

fish master

Member
Maybe a little off subject but for some reason this thread reminded me of a guy i met a long time ago. he had traveled all over the united states. he was a career criminal. he had been in and out of prison most of his life. he told me he would rather walk the alleys of new york city at night than walk thru a farmers backyard in the midwest. I ask him why and he said the farmer will shoot you. Thought that was funny
 

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish master http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506782
Maybe a little off subject but for some reason this thread reminded me of a guy i met a long time ago. he had traveled all over the united states. he was a career criminal. he had been in and out of prison most of his life. he told me he would rather walk the alleys of new york city at night than walk thru a farmers backyard in the midwest. I ask him why and he said the farmer will shoot you. Thought that was funny
Used to be farmers would keep shotguns loaded with rock salt. It wont kill (usually) but you'll know you've been shot and wish you hadn't. That was more about running off thieves than personal defense but if you unloaded a round into someone's face I would hazard to guess it would stop them in their tracks LOL!
 

reefraff

Active Member
If you did that nowadays the thief would sue you and the EPA would fine you for introducing salt into the environment
 

fish master

Member
They had 2 of them from that news paper on tv the other day and they are defending what they done. They dont think they done anything wrong. Dont know why they just dont admit they messed up
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/400-texas-teachers-turn-out-for-free-concealed-handgun-license-course/?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Outdoor%20Hub%20News&utm_content=January+2%2C+2013+Texan+Teachers
 

fish master

Member
salesman of the year
http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/2012/12/obama-on-track-to-get-gun-salesman-of-the-year-title-again-in-2012.html
anytime he gets in front of america and says anything about guns. Gun sales go thru the roof
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506772
Criminals already illegal carry into those establishments if they are intent on committing a crime. The conceal carry allows registered law abiding citizens to carry for a form of protection. If a law abiding citizen is not allowed to carry they dont., your whole argument aboutbeing allowed to carry is stupid.
All it does is provide the opportunity for more innocent people to get shot. Nothing like a good fire fight in the middle of the Produce Section, right Darth?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506783
Used to be farmers would keep shotguns loaded with rock salt. It wont kill (usually) but you'll know you've been shot and wish you hadn't. That was more about running off thieves than personal defense but if you unloaded a round into someone's face I would hazard to guess it would stop them in their tracks LOL!
It stings quite a bit. Nailed by rock salt when I was a youngin' taking watermelons out of a farmer's patch by my Aunt's farm. (Never said I was a saint).
 

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506808
It stings quite a bit. Nailed by rock salt when I was a youngin' taking watermelons out of a farmer's patch by my Aunt's farm. (Never said I was a saint).
I didn't realize it was stealing at the time but a friend of my mom's had me pick a bunch of "leftover" onions. I filled the trunk of her Pontiac with them. I don't think we bought onions for a few years after that. Just as we were getting ready to leave the farmer set his dogs loose. I had a friend who got dog bit stealing oranges. There was a reason they called it Orange County.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
All it does is provide the opportunity for more innocent people to get shot.  Nothing like a good fire fight in the middle of the Produce Section, right Darth?
So the alternative for mass murder to occur by an illegally carrying criminal is better is what you are saying. Gotcha.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
You might want to talk some more to your neighbor. He is correct that crime rates declined in states that adopted concealed carry laws. However, rates also dropped comparably in states that have maintained strict gun control laws. In fact, nobody really understands why this drop in crime has occurred, but explanations range from higher rates of incarceration to the drop in cocaine usage, and even Roe vs. Wade making legal abortion available (read Freakanomics about this one). But the right answer is "nobody knows".
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish master http:///t/394041/gun-bans-dont-work-and-here-is-an-example#post_3506781
Bio, i think your taking the conceal carry the wrong way. its to protect yourself.Not taking the law into your own hands and hunting down bad guys.
I understand. But once you pull that weapon, you are essentially taking the law into your own hands. The Walmart shooter becomes "the bad guy". What's the point in drawing your weapon if you don't plan to use it? If you're standing there weapon drawn, and this guy pops out and is pointing his gun at someone besides you, if you confront and act upon shooting the guy, you aren't protecting yourself, but his intended victim. Therefore, you now place yourself in the same position as that of a police officer. Unfortunately, the majority of CCW's don't have the mental capacity or proper training to handle these types of scenarios. You may well be proficient enough with your weapon to hit the assailant, but you also may hit another innocent victim in the process. What happens if you miss, and he starts firing back? Do you stand your ground and start unloading that 17-round clip (no telling where the bullets may go), do you run and hide, do you start retreating at the same time you're still shooting? Remember, we're not talking about home intrusion, or a one-on-one confrontation with a guy trying to rob you or break into your property. This is against some crazed nutjob that has one or more weapons, possibly bullet-proof armor, and absolutely no fear because his ultimate goal is to kill as many people possible before someone shoots him, or he simply shoots himself. This isn't standing there calm and complacent, shooting some paper target. This is intense pressure, you shooting at a living human being.
How often do you shoot your weapon? Once per week, once per month, every three months, longer? I'm usually pretty accurate with hitting center/close to center 90% with my 9mm. I've gone several months without shooting it, and when I do go back, my first 20-30 shots I'm hitting down and to the right of center (This is shooting at a paper target at 15 feet away). It's a fixed-sight weapon, so there's no site adjustments that can get knocked off. It's just from improper stance, holding of the gun, and probably my mis-judging of distances as I've gotten older. If I was carrying my gun and had a confrontation similar to the Walmart scenario, I'd probably say that I would have a good chance of completely missing my target, especially if this guy was further than 15 feet away. It's not just because I'm facing this adrenaline rush having the thought of shooting a person who is most likely shooting at me, it's because my skills are simply not proficent enough to handle the situation. This is what you face with 95% of concealed carriers. I have friends who have CHL's, and they tell me that they probably only shoot once per month, if that. They say it's due to lack of time, having to drive out to the firing range (the majority of ranges in the SA area are at least 30 - 45 minutes from my home), and also cost of ammo ($15 - $18 for a box of 50 rounds, if not higher). So again, unless your skills are honed, and you practice firing your weapon on a consistent basis, then all you have is a false sense of security hidden under your jacket.
 
Top