sinaloa213
Active Member
gimme a good clean fight
***)
i wanna enjoy this
***)
Has anyone seen this??
- Thread starter scarface
- Start date
jessecnc
Member
On the water change subject, water changes are NOT necessary. The two biggest reasons for water changes are to replace calcium and other trace elements, and to dillute toxins (nitrate mostly). If you dose the tank, use a calcium reactor, etc. you eliminate the first reason. And if you have a properly setup system with sufficient LR and LS to complete the nitrogen cycle, you eliminate the second reason and no longer need water changes.
Obviously in practice it is much easier for most people to just change the water. But to claim water changes are a necessity is pretty ignorant.
I for one change only 15% of my water every few months. I have to scrape my glass once a month so I can see through the coralline, I have a green leather, mushrooms, and zoos I wish would stop growing, I have a pig of a Clownfish, and I test zero for nitrates year-round.
I don't use any "miracle" products, just a well researched setup. BTW, I'm not saying I believe in Chemi-whatever or the other wonder products, but I do believe in nature!
Obviously in practice it is much easier for most people to just change the water. But to claim water changes are a necessity is pretty ignorant.
I for one change only 15% of my water every few months. I have to scrape my glass once a month so I can see through the coralline, I have a green leather, mushrooms, and zoos I wish would stop growing, I have a pig of a Clownfish, and I test zero for nitrates year-round.
I don't use any "miracle" products, just a well researched setup. BTW, I'm not saying I believe in Chemi-whatever or the other wonder products, but I do believe in nature!
xdave
Active Member
It's like Biodome underwater
The ultimate goal has always been to find that balance where and enclosed eco system becomes self regulating.
Chemi-Pure does what that other thing says it does. It ionises the water and releases pollutants trapped between the water molecules. Then your plant life can use them. It's "freebasing" like what Richard Pryor caught on fire doing. When you add caustic soda to corn and heat it in an iron pan it turns blue. The niacin in this corn is in free ion form, 5 times more will be absorbed when eaten. The niacin was already there but locked up between other things.
Chemi-Pure does what that other thing says it does. It ionises the water and releases pollutants trapped between the water molecules. Then your plant life can use them. It's "freebasing" like what Richard Pryor caught on fire doing. When you add caustic soda to corn and heat it in an iron pan it turns blue. The niacin in this corn is in free ion form, 5 times more will be absorbed when eaten. The niacin was already there but locked up between other things.
oceana
Active Member
Here is a problem with this subject
People come to a place like this to get good advice and help with starting the trip into this hobby. As so called pro's we need to take the high road and give advice that has been proven to work and be over all accepted.
It is VERY irresponsible to tell anyone not to do a water change. I would never tell someone they are not needed. Although it may work for some people. In general it won’t work for most and will quickly lead to failure. We need to think about the advice given before we speak. Is it what’s best for you or is it in the best interest of the general asking public? You can always follow up with your OPINION but you need to list it as just that to help avoid any confusion. Then at that point it’s up to the reader to use a method that works best for them.
the fights dont start because one persons way is wrong they always start when one person is telling a new person that it is ok do do something that in most cases is flat out wrong. which brings me back to what i said above. give good researched and PROVEN advice. after that the readers can take it down what ever road they want.
I know i for one dont want dont want to be the cause of someone failure in this wonderful hobby. happy reefing
People come to a place like this to get good advice and help with starting the trip into this hobby. As so called pro's we need to take the high road and give advice that has been proven to work and be over all accepted.
It is VERY irresponsible to tell anyone not to do a water change. I would never tell someone they are not needed. Although it may work for some people. In general it won’t work for most and will quickly lead to failure. We need to think about the advice given before we speak. Is it what’s best for you or is it in the best interest of the general asking public? You can always follow up with your OPINION but you need to list it as just that to help avoid any confusion. Then at that point it’s up to the reader to use a method that works best for them.
the fights dont start because one persons way is wrong they always start when one person is telling a new person that it is ok do do something that in most cases is flat out wrong. which brings me back to what i said above. give good researched and PROVEN advice. after that the readers can take it down what ever road they want.
I know i for one dont want dont want to be the cause of someone failure in this wonderful hobby. happy reefing
xdave
Active Member
Point well taken. IMO this was really just a heated debate over ionization techmiques. If you aren't familiar with this theories, certainly don't try to implement the practices.
Also IMO, the only qualification for being able to post advice on a message board is an email address. All advice should be verified through other sources, ie the lfs guy, respected authors, etc..
Also IMO, the only qualification for being able to post advice on a message board is an email address. All advice should be verified through other sources, ie the lfs guy, respected authors, etc..
bojik
Member
ON the water change subject. I only do a 10-20% in my 5 gallon every 2-3 months. No hair or other algae problems. Though there is a little purple and red coraline on the LR. Its happily stable.
No skimmer even just the mini biowheel filter sponge and DIY carbon basket. Though theres a couple horribly huge bristleworms in it...(dredding the task of removal) Just got a colored tube worm, a hermit or two and a mexican tubo with a Firefish. (had 3 older juvenals was trying for a pair which sadly didn't work). Water changes are good advice. Some systems that are lightly stocked might find that equalibrium point where they are not a must, but i'd still say they would likely be good for it.
wilsonreef
Member
In response to Oceana's response. I agree. I have heard debates about this subject pro's and con's. The main thing that always comes up is the ocean doesn't do water changes. Wrong. The ocean is constantly "adding" water and "changing" water. How? Think about what happens when it rains in the ocean, yes that's the ocean being topped off with fresh unsalted water, and what about all the rivers that empty into the ocean, again the ocean being topped off with fresh water. When I say fresh I don't mean filtered. I mean salt free water that has trace elements in it. You should say thanks to God for keeping things in order this way, after all he is the one keeping it "topped off"
JMO
JMO
jessecnc
Member
I must apologize if I sounded harsh or absolute about the water changes. As we all know there are no absolutes in this hobby and no 1 right way to do anything. If there were it might take the fun out it! I just wanted to point out that it is possible to have a very healthy, very successful reef tank without water changes. It may not be easy, nor work for everyone, but it is possible.
jbair
Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
No called the claim of no water changes full of it........
Why? I thought this form was a place to come and get advice? People post their experience with things that they tried on their own systems and found to work or not work, for the benefit of all. Yet anytime someone post something that is not dogma to the "tang police", they get flamed or ridiculed for what they did or said. This is the 10th person on this form that I've read that has said that the do water change maybe once a month or longer, or no water changes at all.
I am a newbie and by no means think I know anything about this hobby. I have read a few books and have been a lurker on this form since January 2006, and a member since April 2006 and still have not even started to set up my tank (110 gal)yet. If I read something posted by someone and have questions, I post a question in the forms and read the replys. If 90% of the replys say yes you can do it or no you can't, I probley will go with them, if its 50/50 then I have to make a decision on what to do. I understand that some people are looking out for us newbies, and thank you, but its my dicision to follow the advice offered. xDave and JesseCNC are just saying what they have done and it has worked for them. I would like to read about it without having to read all the neagtive feedback like (anyone who says they don't do water changes are full of s**t) and make my own decision.
If you don't agree with what someone post cool, I understand, just say IMO (In My Opinion) like a lot of people do. There is too much flaming going on, IMO. just my .02
tx reef
Active Member
Originally Posted by JBAIR
Why? I thought this form was a place to come and get advice? People post their experience with things that they tried on their own systems and found to work or not work, for the benefit of all. Yet anytime someone post something that is not dogma to the "tang police", they get flamed or ridiculed for what they did or said. This is the 10th person on this form that I've read that has said that the do water change maybe once a month or longer, or no water changes at all.
I am a newbie and by no means think I know anything about this hobby. I have read a few books and have been a lurker on this form since January 2006, and a member since April 2006 and still have not even started to set up my tank (110 gal)yet. If I read something posted by someone and have questions, I post a question in the forms and read the replys. If 90% of the replys say yes you can do it or no you can't, I probley will go with them, if its 50/50 then I have to make a decision on what to do. I understand that some people are looking out for us newbies, and thank you, but its my dicision to follow the advice offered. xDave and JesseCNC are just saying what they have done and it has worked for them. I would like to read about it without having to read all the neagtive feedback like (anyone who says they don't do water changes are full of s**t) and make my own decision.
If you don't agree with what someone post cool, I understand, just say IMO (In My Opinion) like a lot of people do. There is too much flaming going on, IMO. just my .02
Agreed!
This is the same crap that started the back and forth between mystic7 and others and caused him to be banned.
I do 10% water changes weekly, but if someone else wants to/can run a successful without water changes, then let them do it.
Are they not just posting their experience?
scarface
Member
I had no idea that this thread would cause such a stir. Listen I respect everyones advice and their opinion and what I feel is that people should just do what works for them and not get their panties so much in a bunch when another person isnt doing it the way another person is saying. There is no winning formula for this hobby, yes we go by peoples past experiences and we try to find our own little hitch to go with it, and what works just works! :happyfish <this is all that really matters dont it???
acrylic51
Active Member
No reason to get upset but just like Oceana says you shouldn't even put advice or advise about not doing water changes just for the reasons she mentioned.......Each tank is unique and you could set 10 tanks up exactly the same and I'd be highly suprised if 2 out of the 10 would survive without doing water changes....
Maybe we should all ask stevewest if he would go without water changes on his system or some of the other really hot systems out there and see what the real big guns would say...better yet as Mark Melev his insight on "no water" changes and see what explanation you might get.....Again I'd love to put any tank that does no water changes up against either of the 2 tanks that I mentioned and the proof would show for itself.........
Maybe we should all ask stevewest if he would go without water changes on his system or some of the other really hot systems out there and see what the real big guns would say...better yet as Mark Melev his insight on "no water" changes and see what explanation you might get.....Again I'd love to put any tank that does no water changes up against either of the 2 tanks that I mentioned and the proof would show for itself.........
jessecnc
Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
No reason to get upset but just like Oceana says you shouldn't even put advice or advise about not doing water changes just for the reasons she mentioned.......Each tank is unique and you could set 10 tanks up exactly the same and I'd be highly suprised if 2 out of the 10 would survive without doing water changes....
Maybe we should all ask stevewest if he would go without water changes on his system or some of the other really hot systems out there and see what the real big guns would say...better yet as Mark Melev his insight on "no water" changes and see what explanation you might get.....Again I'd love to put any tank that does no water changes up against either of the 2 tanks that I mentioned and the proof would show for itself.........
I think everyone that is so sure about the absolute necessity of water changes needs to read this article. If this isn't enough to admit the possibility they are not needed, do a search and you'll find plenty more SCIENTIFIC evidence...
http://www.reefs.org/library/article...htbill_wc.html
No reason to get upset but just like Oceana says you shouldn't even put advice or advise about not doing water changes just for the reasons she mentioned.......Each tank is unique and you could set 10 tanks up exactly the same and I'd be highly suprised if 2 out of the 10 would survive without doing water changes....
Maybe we should all ask stevewest if he would go without water changes on his system or some of the other really hot systems out there and see what the real big guns would say...better yet as Mark Melev his insight on "no water" changes and see what explanation you might get.....Again I'd love to put any tank that does no water changes up against either of the 2 tanks that I mentioned and the proof would show for itself.........
I think everyone that is so sure about the absolute necessity of water changes needs to read this article. If this isn't enough to admit the possibility they are not needed, do a search and you'll find plenty more SCIENTIFIC evidence...
http://www.reefs.org/library/article...htbill_wc.html
jbair
Member
I don't remenber reading where anyone said "do not do water changes", no one said that. What was said was that some "do water changes every few months or to replace evaporation. Now if you ask me, no thats not a water change...., but if your adding water due to evaporation then you could call that water replacement :thinking:. I've read where some people have 2-3 gal evaporation every couple of days, thats a lot of water. If all your doing is replaceing that loss is that a water change or water replacement :thinking: ? I've also read that some do water changes of 10 -20% every week, some every other week and so on, and this is in addition to evaporation. So my question is this, If your systems is stable (all reading are within norms), why do you need to do a water change? Would'nt just adding new water for evaporation be ok, and then after adding the water check your levels to see if everything is ok?
(P.S. See I do ask questions, and don't just take what someone says as law)
(P.S. See I do ask questions, and don't just take what someone says as law)
tx reef
Active Member
When water evaporates, the D.O.C.s stay at the same level.
Actually, they become more concentrated when water is evaporated from the system.
All you are accomplishing by topping off your water is keeping the salinity stable.
The D.O.C.s are not removed from the system at all.
Actually, they become more concentrated when water is evaporated from the system.
All you are accomplishing by topping off your water is keeping the salinity stable.
The D.O.C.s are not removed from the system at all.
oceana
Active Member
Originally Posted by JBAIR
I don't remenber reading where anyone said "do not do water changes", no one said that. What was said was that some "do water changes every few months or to replace evaporation. Now if you ask me, no thats not a water change...., but if your adding water due to evaporation then you could call that water replacement :thinking:. I've read where some people have 2-3 gal evaporation every couple of days, thats a lot of water. If all your doing is replaceing that loss is that a water change or water replacement :thinking: ? I've also read that some do water changes of 10 -20% every week, some every other week and so on, and this is in addition to evaporation. So my question is this, If your systems is stable (all reading are within norms), why do you need to do a water change? Would'nt just adding new water for evaporation be ok, and then after adding the water check your levels to see if everything is ok?
(P.S. See I do ask questions, and don't just take what someone says as law)
as stated above your only topping it off you are still not removing the waste. over time it become more and more concentrated . i evap approx 3 gallons of water PER DAY. i do alot of small indirect water changes everyday. i DO NOT do any scheduled water changes, but thats only because i have to replace approx 25 gallons every week due to the water i removed. if it was not for that i would do only small water changes maybe once a month.
I don't remenber reading where anyone said "do not do water changes", no one said that. What was said was that some "do water changes every few months or to replace evaporation. Now if you ask me, no thats not a water change...., but if your adding water due to evaporation then you could call that water replacement :thinking:. I've read where some people have 2-3 gal evaporation every couple of days, thats a lot of water. If all your doing is replaceing that loss is that a water change or water replacement :thinking: ? I've also read that some do water changes of 10 -20% every week, some every other week and so on, and this is in addition to evaporation. So my question is this, If your systems is stable (all reading are within norms), why do you need to do a water change? Would'nt just adding new water for evaporation be ok, and then after adding the water check your levels to see if everything is ok?
(P.S. See I do ask questions, and don't just take what someone says as law)
as stated above your only topping it off you are still not removing the waste. over time it become more and more concentrated . i evap approx 3 gallons of water PER DAY. i do alot of small indirect water changes everyday. i DO NOT do any scheduled water changes, but thats only because i have to replace approx 25 gallons every week due to the water i removed. if it was not for that i would do only small water changes maybe once a month.