Head Pressure and Pump Location

melbournefl

Member
I have a closed loop circulation system on my 220 (in process) and am running out of room for the pumps LOL ... my question regards something I *think* I read years ago about head pressure and pumps. If I my input & output lines are both at an equal height, can I put the pump lower than the tank and not create any head pressure? Remember, we're talking closed loop here so the pressure should remain constant through the loop right?
Okay all you fluid dynamic engineers out there, lend me a hand please ... oh yeah, Broomer, you can give me your thoughts also if you'd be so kind :p
Thanks all,
Paul
 

melbournefl

Member
closed loop circulation simply means that the water leaves through one bulkhead, goes to the pump and returns via another bulkhead. It's used strictly for circulation. It differs from a standard overflow and return system in that the water from the tank is never "dumped" anywhere, just stays in the "closed loop." As I mentioned, I think I read that the location of the pump in this scenerio means nothing as far as head pressure is concerned because the pressure from the tank should remain equal through the loop. I.E. water pressure from above offsets the return journey back up to the tank if the pump is located below the tank.
Thanks and I'm still waiting for Broomer to jump in here LOL
Later,
Paul
 

broomer5

Active Member
:)
Another mind-bender from Melbourne - and early in the morning to boot !
Well ....... gunna have to think about this one. Must go get another cup of coffee. Be right back.
 

melbournefl

Member
LOL broomer you know I *live* to keep you on your toes bud!
Enjoy the coffee and explain to me why you're up and posting at this time of the morning hehehehe
Later,
Paul
 

broomer5

Active Member
Just up early - getting ready for the Holidays.
Now ..... on to your question.
Here's a pic to think about.
 

broomer5

Active Member
Okay - thinking as I type.
In order for any liquid to "flow" there MUST be a pressure differential, or drop in pressure.
The blue we'll call the inlet to pump line.
The red we'll call the outlet from pump line.
At rest - both lines, if full or saltwater S.G. 1.025, in theory would have a static head pressure of 36.90 inches of water column.
Equal pressure = No flow
Now
Assuming the entire loop is primed with water, what happens when we turn on the pump ?
Pressure is created within the pump housing as the impeller begins to spin.
A positive pressure is induced on the outlet side of the pump.
A negative pressure is induced on the suction side of the pump.
The inlet line still has the positive head on it from above.
The outlet line still has the positive head on it from above.
This can not change - cause the water has mass, and gravity is pulling it down. Atmospheric pressure is pressing down on both lines as well - so we really should be talking about "absolute" pressure, and not just gauge pressure.
I believe Paul's issue is that since both wet legs are of equal vertical distance - that the inlet head would assist the pump by applying pressure - to help pump the water back up - and therefore may cancel out the discharge head that exists.
I'm not sure - but I imagine there's some truth to that. But how far down could you mount the pump, and still have it pump water back up.
If the differential between the two lines did indeed cancel each other out - could you place the pump a mile under the tank ?
Could you place it 100 feet below the tank ?
Just how far could you put the pump, before it would not pump the water back up ?
I still think that you would be limited to the pump specs on flow vs vertical head pressure - but I may be mistaken.
Unfortunately - I must leave soon - and will not be able to continue this discussion for a couple days.
Knock yourselves out - you guys ;)
I'll keep thinking about it - and see what you all come up with when I return.
later
 

melbournefl

Member
Your pic is close but ... move the bulkhead feeding the pump to the bottom of the tank and move the return to the bottom also. There is no siphon needed to start the flow of water, gravity does that on it's own.
BTW here's a pic of the "return" portion of the closed loop. What you can't see from the pic is that there are 4 returns feeding the pvc framework and the framework itself is "plugged" internally creating 4 individual "zones" if you will.
 

melbournefl

Member
Thanks Broomer, you have a GREAT holiday :D Hope Santa brings you and your's everything you want!
I'll try to come up with some more "mind teasers" for you to work on.
Later,
Paul
 
Interesting problem.
I'm not sure what you mean about 'not creating any head pressure'. But you can't put your pump at any level below the tank and get the same outflow results because of friction. There's friction between the water and the walls of the pipe. So where ever you have moving water, i.e. within the inlet and outlet pipes, there's going to be a friction head loss. So, the longer the pipes, the more friction head loss you're going to have and you're going to have to have a pump that can overcome these losses.
Of course there's a lot a variables in this problem. How deep the tank is is going to determine what kind of static head you have. This will assist pushing the water down the inlet pipe. But it will also hinder the water coming back up the outlet pipe. So the static head really doesn't affect the movement of the water per say, but it will determine what size pump you will need.
Keep in mind I'm trying to think back many years to my 'intro to hydraulics' class. Having a positive head at the inlet to a pump doesn't really 'assist' the pump per say. What positive head does is allow you to have a smaller pump. Let's say you want to pump to a height of 20 feet from the bottom of a storage tank. If the tank is just about empty then you would need a pump that delivers 20 feet of head (we're neglecting friction here). If the tank is full of water 10 feet deep then I believe you need a pump that delivers a head of only 10 feet.
I hope this helps.
 

melbournefl

Member
Hmmm actually the way I interpreted the information I found on-line was that as long as the inlet and outlet were at the same depth on the tank the pump would indeed achieve "zero" head pressure, even if below the tank.
But you are very right regarding the friction and the resulting head pressure. On 3/4" pipe you get a head loss of 43.3 feet per 100 feet of pipe when pumping at 15 Gallons per minute, or .43 feet of loss per foot. Since I'm running a maximum of 3 feet from pump to return, it is roughly 1.3 feet of head pressure due to friction, negligible at best.
This all assumes straight unrestricted runs from pump to outlet, which is not the case when you have valves etc. on the line but that's a whole other issue. The point I was checking on was, the actual head pressure resulting from pump vertical placement in relation to the tank in a closed loop environment and, based on what I've found, the result is zero.
LOL at least that's my understanding,
Paul
 

broomer5

Active Member
Okay Paul,
Took some time to think about this again ;) as well as do some reading online. Amazing what is online once you find it LOL
I don't know if I would use the term "zero" head pressure, although I do agree with what you're getting at.
Equal static head pressure on each line at the pump - when the pump is at rest.
As I'm sure you found out in your prior research, installing the pump below the tank, and having the suction side full of water from above - can be called a "flooded suction" when talking in those techno-weenie pump terms.
If both discharge and suction sides are identical in height, and are both "seeing" the exact same fluid head pressures - as measured from the center of the pump impeller - then you would indeed have a flooded suction.
You have equal static heads applying pressure down each leg to the pump, with the no differential pressure between the two when the pump is off.
When you apply power to the pump, and the impeller begins to spin, you will see a drop in static head on the suction side.
From what I read, my understanding is that this occurs because as the impeller spins, in applys energy to the water at the far ends of each impeller blade, and at this point in the pump housing. The design of the pump allows this higher pressure water to be forced out the discharge outlet, and as a result, the suction side must give up it's energy - by losing some of it's pressure.
When ever there is flow - there must be a pressure drop.
Now as the water begins to travel up the return line to the tank, it's leg has a higher total pressure ( static pressure + flowing pressure ).
As this is happening, the suction side leg has a lower total pressure at the suction side of the pump ( static head - loss of pressure at intake ).
The Net Positive Suction Head is very high for sure, as compared to pulling liquid into the pump from a traditional "pump-in-sump" installation without the flooded leg above, Since you've flooded the suction side with static head from above, the pump will not cavitate, and the pump will run more efficiently.
Atmospheric pressure is pressing down on the tank surface, and this pressure is added to the total pressure in each leg.
Vapor pressure is just the pressure at which the saltwater will vaporize at a given temperature ( boil ).
In our discussion - the importance of both of these is not too great. We have two opposing sides - each seeing the same atmospheric pressure ~ each seeing the same vapor pressure.
They basically cancel each other out.
You still have head pressures your dealing with - it's just that when you look at - you could somewhat "cancel them out" as well ~ although they are still very much there.
Obviously friction comes into play as mentioned above ~ but on short distances such as these ~ it's minimal.
But again, these forces are there for sure.
I beleive most pump curves showing flow vs. head, are calculated without the available "flooded suction" head pressure being present. My guess is that since you have a gravity fed flooded suction side that has an equal head as the discharge side - that you would be able to get much more flow through the pump - than what is given on it's pump performance curves.
How much more - I would think it's a little different for each pump, but the rules would apply to all.
In any event - Just some new stuff I read about pumps and stuff.
Figured you like to hear some of it.
Maybe not LOL
BTW ~ I really like your set up. Very creative for sure.
Looking forward to seeing some more pics.
Is it in "action" yet ?
 
Thanks Broomer for explaining that. It makes sense now.
Everything basically cancels each other out. You can see this when you apply the Bernoulli equation to the situation. All the terms cancel each other out except one. Friction.
So I now understand what Paul was saying when he said "zero head". If you place the pump 30 feet below the aquarium, the pump won't act like it's pumping against 30 feet but rather will act like it's pumping against 0 feet. So you can place your pump just about anywhere, just as long as it delivers enough head to overcome the energy loss due to friction. But as Broomer said, in aquarium applications this friction energy loss is very small.
It's all becoming clear! :D
 
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