Help - dying fish

[hscott]

We've had our tank set up for about 8 months and it used to be a home to a Picasso Trigger, Niger Trigger and 6-line Grouper. We've sold them are turning it into a reef/fish tank. We have an E-heim canister filter on the tank and the water is testing perfectly fine (see stats below), but we've lost 2 clarkii clown fish, and then a lemonpeel angelfish. Each died within about 3 days - they wouldn't eat. I need help figuring out what might be wrong.
Water Stats
No2 = <.3mg/l
NH3 = 0
SAL = 1.03 (I think a little high)
Ph = 8.0
GH = 10 dH
Calcium = 360
In the tank now we have:
1 red flame scallop
1 orange linka starfish
6 peppermint shrimp
1 camel back shrimp
1 coral banded shrimp
10 Hawaiian zebra hermit crabs
10 blue claw hermit crabs
(and a green hair algae problem we are trying to remedy)
about 12 lbs of LR, crushed Florida coral on the base and lava rock, coral (not alive) and a few other rocks as base rocks for our rock structure.
We also have one filtered power head behind the rock structure.
I took the water to the LFS to see if they could do any other test on the water to help. They basically did the same tests that I already did and said the water was fine. They mentioned that it could be some sort of bacteria (like a cold) in the water. Could that be an issue? If so how do I test for it?

 

[bdhough]

Did the fish look like they had any spots on them? Discolored? Not eating? You can't test for an external parasite or internal one either. The only way to tell is by how the fish looks. Look for oddities on the fish....

 

[hscott]

The clown did breathe hard and lay on its side. They each only lasted about 3 days each. Swimming great for 2, missing one and then found dead. No visible signs of of parasite.
I'd like to add another fish. Can you recommend one hardier? that is reef and community fish friendly.

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, You did not mention how long these fish that died had been in the tank. Were they newly placed and died during the first three days? If so, did you get them shipped to you? They may have been stressed during shipping from heat or temperature swings, amonia in the bags etc. Could some type of contaminant like a cleaning product have gotten into the Tank? That would seem unlikely if the other marine life is unaffected. I would guess if not shipping/acclimation stress then some disease. If it was ich you need to wait at least a month for it to die off before putting in any new fish.....but I doubt that as you would have noticed spotts.
If it were my tank, I would leave any new fish out for a month and treat the tank with something like Rally Reef Safe which is copper free and treats marine velvet, dinoflagellates, flukes and bacterial infections wihout affecting the nitrifying bacteria. Make sure that you read to see if it is safe what marine life you have in the tank...I think it is. You need to treat the water as some of these organisms may still be alive to affect any new fish you introduce. When treating with any medication remove all carbon type filter media. Follow the directions to the letter...ie. dose for gallons (estimate) in the tank minus rocks and gravel.
Also, I would get something that I use all the time called Probiotic Marine Formula. It is a protector bacteria culture liquid that stops the activity of many pathogens so they don't come back. It claims to help against ich, body fungus. velvet, closed fins, vibro and hole in the head. I use it all the time. It is not a treatment to kill the problem, but it helps fight a lot of the fish disease organisms with bacteria that either competes against them or makes them sick. I would do all this and like I said wait a month before any new fish. If you determined that it was shipping/acclimation stress, you may not need to treat your tank, but start with one or two fish at a time to see if they get sick again. Quarinteen tank?....you probably need one for new
fish. This is just what I would do. I'm am sure that others will recommend something else or dissagree with me.
Good luck, and sorry for the fish losses. Lesley

 

[737mech]

How are you acclimating the fish? Your sg sounds too high. I'd get that back down to 1.024 - 1.025. It could be that the s.g. difference is too much for them to handle. For example;when you do "hypo" you raise the s.g. very slowly than you lower it. So if the h20 in the bag is @ 1.023 and your tank is 1.030 the difference is too great for acclimating (in a 2 hr period) and your fish die.
HTH

 

[bdhough]

I was thinking that mech....I do know that inverts are even more suceptable to this. The only way to really lower salt levels is by water changes over time. I would try and get it down to about .025. I'm sure most lfs are that or lower....

 

[naturelover]

since your inverts are doing fine and water test not showing anything i assume it is something else.
just think of something you did different that might have carried some other chemicals or something else to water.
(something like you cleand your floor and then you put your hand in the fishtank after you washed your hand well).
It might have affected your fish but not inverts.
I have experienced something smiller to it once and still don't know what happend, but my inverts survived. Yours might be something different so I would keep an eye on adding fish.
If you like to see if fish is the only one have problem then convert a mollie to saltwater since they are hard to keep than guppies and cheap by far compare to saltwaterfish.
See if mollie dies and your inverts still survive. if it does then
this is the solution I did. hope you get around problem somehow.
I did a complete change since I do have other tanks running.

 

[beaslbob]

From what i understand salinity that high will allow parasites to thrive. So I would lower it as others have suggected. And then allow the tank to go fishless for at least three weeks to any fish born parasites have a chance to die off from lack of a host fish.
On the green algae and especially with the cleaner crew you already have (might add a few snales though), you may want to add plant life to your system. macros or marine plants will help starve out the green algae. Might even consider a refugium ir you haven't already.
finally losing fish after only three days sure sounds like a stress problem. could be the sg again.

 

[hscott]

Hey, thanks everyone for your suggestions. I have been thinking about what you've said and wonder if it was bleach.
I know you are all gasping.
Because of the green hair algae, I took all the rocks, coral, plants etc., out of the tank and brushed it off. I dunked the coral (dead kind) into bleach. I rinsed everything well, then put it all in the bathtub and soaked it, drained the water, soaked it and drained 3 times.
Could a bleach residual be what has killed the fish, but not affect the inverts at all?

 

[hscott]

Oh, I forgot to add that I did this after selling the triggers, but before the clowns, inverts and lemon peel angel.

 

[naturelover]

most likely that is the reason and in your situation you would be better off dumping all the stuff and start all over.
Most will argue inverts will die first and in my experience it won't. well it goes for your experience too.
But like I said I still haven't found the course of my fish death, it took only 3 hours or something like that for my 4 or 5 fish to die.
Good luck with setting up again.

 

[moopiespoo]

I use bleach to bleach my dead corals all the time, I usually rinse 5x, but I have never had anything die as a result of this.

 

[hscott]

Now would a bleach residue filter out? I did that 3 weeks ago and we have a 140 gallon tank with an eheim filter.
Also, the fish seem GREAT when we first put them in and for about 48 hours after that.

 

[hscott]

If I were to start over, what do you mean by that?
REALLY start over, or do an extreme water change.

 

[ophiura]

Did you get these fish the same day?
And they died within 3 days?
Where they eating at the store?
Did you see them eating at the store?
When did they arrive at the store in relation to you buying them (eg, the same day?)?
How did you acclimate them (sorry if I missed this)
Did you use full strength bleach?
How long did you soak the bleached things?
What are the nitrates in your tank?
IMO, the fish are less likely to have trouble with the specific gravity than the inverts...fish can handle pretty extreme shifts in specific gravity, so I really doubt that killed them. Being high and allowing parasites to bloom thus killing your fish is far fetched, IMO.
What is the temperature of your tank?
Water changes, carbon and some sort of organic resin (to remove potential pollutants) are good ideas. I am worried with how you went about cleaning the decor.
Fish often die about 2-3 days after a major stress; this is exactly when a fish store will lose most of the fish (that are going to die) from a shipment. Adrenaline carries them through for awhile, but then, finito.
When I worked at an LFS, we had people finding fish in their office tanks dying on Tuesday or wednesday, only to find out that they turned off the heating or A/C and the temp spiked (either way). We would figure out that some sort of cleanser was used. If you can smell it, it can get in your tank. Any chance of that? Extermination, carpet cleaning, etc?

 

[hscott]

Wow, thank you for all your information Ophiura. Let me try to answer your questions.
As for the bleach, I've learned my lesson. The bleach was 1/2 strength and they didn't soak in the bleach long. Most pieces were just dipped, maybe 3 soaked for 1 minute each. All in all there were 4 larger pieces (fist size) and about 12 small pieces.
The lemon peel came from SWF.com via fedex and I thought I was extra careful with it. I opened the box in a dark hallway and it acclimated to the tank temp for 4 hours rather than 20 min because I had to leave for a meeting almost immediately. I left all lights off and there was paper inside the bag he came in. I then did the drip method in a bucket that had been rinsed very well several times and it was the "instant ocean" bucket so I figured it was a good one to use. I acclimated it for 2 hours and then netted him to put into tank (only out of water for a second).
As for the fish. I got the first two at the LFS a week or so before i got the lemonpeel. I don't know if they ate there or when they got them. I know now what questions to ask.
Where should I go from here? Suggestions on hardier fish to get? I have kids and of course they want Nemo and Dory. (clowns and hippo tang)

 

[hscott]

what do you think about putting a few aquacultured percula clowns or a couple blue (or) green chromis. Are either of these more hardy?

 

[lesleybird]

Originally posted by HScott
Now would a bleach residue filter out? I did that 3 weeks ago and we have a 140 gallon tank with an eheim filter.
Also, the fish seem GREAT when we first put them in and for about 48 hours after that.
Bleach is nothing more than chlorine.....antichlore products for fish tanks to make tap water safe would do it. Also chlorine dissapates into the air in time. I was talking to a guy who owns a maintanence company for fish tanks at my work. He takes the large rocks out of the fresh water tank and bleaches them in a chlorox solution and then rinses them and sets them in water with some anitchlorine stuff to make tap water safe for fish to neutralize the residual. Never hurts the fish this way. I would add extra chlorine remover if you try this yourself just to be safe.
Lesley

 

[naturelover]

i would take out your decor and boil it once before putting it in again and do water changes.
Try with damsel even tho they are pain to catch it is very hardy once they survive for a week or two, then catch it. since you don't have alot of rock you shouldn't have trouble catching it. After that consider clown.
once you catch damsel take it back to lfs and give it away.

 

[lesleybird]

Hardier fish ? Why? I vote for Nemo and Dory. If you think it was the chlorine that killed your fish then just make sure not to do it again. I am wondering if the chlorine bleach might have killed off a lot of your good bacteira? Maybe you should wait a few weeks in case this happened in case it needs to cycle again. I would keep feeding the tank until then to help it cycle if need be. I don't know how you will know for sure if the biological filter bacteria load was damaged or reduced. Lesley