Help me plan my Christmas tank, please?

[reefnutpa]

My dwarf tanks are simple. The main tank is a 10 gal standard aquarium, hydroid-free live rock, hydroid-free caulerpa prolifera (bought online, but I can't post the link here), AquaClear filter, 2" black tahatian moon sand. I use no heater, but do have an Ice Probe chiller mounted on the filter to keep the temp from going over 72F. Tank has been running for close to four years.
The last of my oldest group of dwarfs I had for a bit over two years died earlier this year, most that are left I've had somewhere in the 1 to 1 1/2 year range. All are WC bought from various online vendors, so I have no idea of their age when I got them. When running at it's prime, the tank was home to 40+ adults and a few dozen fry/juviniles.
Dwarfs are fun, but are more work than the larger species IMO. Don't get involved with dwarfs on the belief they are "easy" and less maintenance/work than larger seahorses. I have tanks of both, including tanks of Erectus fry & juveniles, and I spend more time on dwarf care than any of the others - including the fry tanks. When you combine the time for water changes, mixing water, sterilizing brine hatching containers, hatching brine, enriching brine, sterilizing enrichment containers, keeping up with a copepod culture tank (harvesting, cleaning, enriching, water changes, ect), tank maintenance, cleaning sponges on intakes, etc etc.... it is much more involved and time consuming on a daily basis than a 29gal tank with a pair of Erectus where you do bi-weekly water changes, thaw out mysis shrimp twice a day to feed and do regular filter cleaning. Not that any of it is hard work, but with dwarf tanks you need to be more meticulous due to the small size of the tanks, reduced flow, heavy feedings of enriched live foods, etc.
I'll always have a dwarf tank set up here, as they are just facinating miniature versions of the larger seahorses. But in the scheme of things, think of dwarfs as seahorse fry that never grow up.
Best of luck!
Tom

 

[sueandherzoo]

I'm very glad I put a lid on my excitement and enthusiasm yesterday and didn't run out and make the purchases. My plan was to sleep on it all and head out today just to make sure I wasn't acting on impulse (which I sometimes have a bad habit of doing). This morning when I woke up something just didn't "feel right" about the upcoming new additions and I think the part that is bothering me is the responsibility and commitment to raising food for the dwarves. Although it sounds like a fun project and is probably VERY simple once you get it up and running and in the swing of things, I'm just not sure I can add one more thing to my plate. Between rescuing dogs, (and making our own dog food for them) rescuing adult and hatchling turtles (both aquatic and land) and caring for the macaw and raising the food for the newly hatched boxies (mealworms) and raising koi I'm getting nervous. As it is I spend my entire lunch hour tending to the critters and I wonder if I can responsibly add another commitment to my already-too-limited time.
That's not to say I'm NOT going to do it, but today I am rationally thinking it through and trying to figure out what my "gut" tells me. The thing with hobbies is you have to be careful that the fun and excitement and rewarding aspect of it doesn't turn into a chore/task/regret.
I could spare myself the hatchery process if I went with full-size horses but then I have to set up a larger tank (definitely won't be a plug and play in that case) and I have to prepare for shelling out much more money for each horse. We're looking at a minimum of $50 a piece, right?
I'm off to do more reading..... then I'll see which way my heart is leaning. If these little newly hatched turtles would start eating on their own it would make my life SO much easier!

Keep the thoughts and input coming - even though I'm confused it's good that I am thorougly thinking out all sides and hearing the pros and cons so I can come up with an educated decision.
(wow, did I grow up somewhere along the line while I wasn't watching?!?!?)

Sue

 

[dingus890]

Well as with all seahorses their tanks are never plug and play.Those eclipse all in one tanks are just not right for horses.A simple tank is always the easiest and cheapest for seahorses.
I think if you do want to give seahorses a try go with with the larger species.
Yes they run about $50 to $70 each but dwarfs run from $12 to $24 each.And Dwarfs life cycle is only about 1 1/2 to 2 years.Larger horses are usually 2 to 8 years.
Plus you have to think of the cost of the brine shrimp eggs.
I still want dwarfs but everytime I do I remember all the aspects of keeping them.And I quickley forget about the want...lol

 

[sueandherzoo]

Since I am so new to the saltwater hobby (not only seahorses, but ALL saltwater) I am leaning back towards the dwarfs. I don't mind the time, energy and commitment that will be involved (I have to be busy with hobbies - it keeps me sane!) and since I am in the process of shutting down my outdoor ponds and turtle habitats for the winter I will have the extra time to devote to my indoor hobbies. Besides, the thought of spending $200 on my first pair of full-sized horses just scares the bejeezus out of me. I will not sleep at night since I'll be staring at them looking for potential problems. That is just too much of a financial gamble (in my opinion) for a newbie. If I am successful with the dwarves there's nothing saying I can't then move up to another tank of full-sized. (wink)
And I'm starting to agree about the plug and play units. I have the 12 gallon Eclipse right now that is basically empty except for live rock, live sand, a pistol shrimp and a feather duster (still waiting for the water to be PERFECT before I put anything else in there) and I think it will be overkill for horses. I'm going to head out to get a 20 (give or take a few gallons) tank and light and filter and keep it simple. Especially since I already have one plug and play and I plan on asking for another for Christmas. I guess I should have one "build your own" system going, too. HOw else will I learn, right?
Substrate.... what do I want on the bottom of the horse tank if not live sand? Nothing sharp, I know..... do I buy dead sand?
Sue

 

[reefnutpa]

Hi Sue,
I certainly don't want to talk you out of dwarfs, as they have been a passion of mine for quite a few years now. However, all too often I see people jumping into the dwarf hobby without the realization of what it really takes to successfully keep them long-term.
On the dwarf forum I moderate, many new hobbyists are teenagers who think they can just put stuff in a 5 gal tank, plop in the seahorses and they are good to go. They are cheap and if they don't make it, no big money loss. Others are hobbyists who feel dwarfs are good "starter" seahorses they can work with and gain experience with before investing in the larger seahorses. Unfortunately, dwarfs and the bigger seahorses don't have much in common in terms of food or maintenance.
You are correct, once you get into a routine of doing the daily chores it becomes part of your daily rituals. Howver, you still need time spaced throughout the day. I can give you a few examples, since the food/feeding is a concern for you I'll concentrate on that....
Brine shrimp hatching water is disgusting, filthy and loaded with bacteria after they hatch. Unless the hatching containers are cleaned/sterilized after each use you take the risk of bacteria growing on the sides, etc which will greatly diminish the hatch rates. Ultimately, this bacteria can cause a non-hatch, which means you have nothing to feed your dwarfs. Having no stomachs, this is not something that can happen too often or they will suffer. Therefore, it's best to never take the chance and clean those hatchers. And to always have dual hatchers running at 12 hour intervals just in case something goes amiss and there is a non-hatch.
Another example, enriching the 24+ hour old bbs (do not enrich brine under 24 hours as they have no mouths/way of ingesting the enrichment). Enriching is placing the 24 hour old bbs in a container and adding an enrichment product. I use both a frozen (but liquid) Nanno Paste (algae paste) and AlgaMax. This process can take up to an hour or so. I start at 6:30am and the container is usually clear of the enrichment so I can feed by 7:30 or so, right before I leave for work. When I feed, I turn the AquaClear filter down to it's lowest setting so the bbs or pods aren't sucked into the filter so quickly. When I return home from work I turn it back to regular flow.
Since newly hatched brine and/or enriched brine should not be the sole food source, it's adviseable to have a culture of copepods going as well. This allows you to offer a variety of foods, which long-term is best for the dwarfs.
I've seen dozens of dwarf hobbyists come and go over the last couple years. I'll be honest, half quit because it's too much work for their particular situation and they start to slack off on the fundamentals and the dwarfs perish within 4 or 6 months. Others quit, or have their dwarfs perish within the first month or two because they set up inappropriate tanks and don't care for them properly from the start.
Dwarfs are pretty hardy fish if you start out right and care for them properly. Yes, they are a bit of work, but you are rewarded with keeping a tankful of healthy, cute 'lil seahorses
Rarely do dwarfs get any of the illnesses of the larger seahorses. On rare occassions, I've heard of a hobbyist with a male dwarf seahorse that has trapped air in it's pouch - but that's about the extent of it. Unfortunately, it seems if a dwarf does get ill the pathogens kill it before the hobbyist has a chance to medicate. I often say, dwarfs are either alive or dead - there is no in between. With that said, dwarfs are hardy and there is rarely an instance where an illness presents itself if they are well cared for and fed nutritious foods.
I would guesstimate once you have your routine down, if you have 15 min in the morning and 15 min in the evening you will have enough time for the "daily chores".
You know better than anyone if you can squeeze some more time into your already busy day. If you think you can, I say jump aboard and try dwarfs. They are really very rewarding in terms of the countless hours you can spend just watching them.
Best of luck!
Tom
On a side note, I have an Red-Lored Amazon myself...so I know the time spent on a spoiled bird LOL. I also have a Sulcata tortoise - another 'lil bugger that needs attention. In addition to my dog, cat and reef tanks.... :::sigh::: no wonder I have no life beyond pets LOL.

 

[dingus890]

In all honesty do not start with seahorses of any kind if you are new to saltwater.Maybe try some hardy fish and get some experience.I would say that after 6 months to a year, maybe consider seahorses.Never think that they are easy...lol..even though some sites will say Dwarfs are the easiest of the seahorses.They are not.They are like fry of regular seahorses all the time like someone said.
I am not trying to discourage you from horses since seahorses are not impossible for a new hobbist but they are much harder to keep than most marine fish.
Water quality has to be pristine and kept that way.And seahorses are very sensitive to water quality and temperature changes and with dwarfs usually being housed in small tanks,temps and quality can change very fast.
What really turns me off about dwarfs is the fear of Hydroids taking over the tank...AGH!

But again if you really think you can handle dwarfs,I REALLY suggest buying the book 'The Complete Guide to Dwarf Seahorses in the Aquarium' by Alisa Wagner.Such a fantastic book on keeping dwarfs.

It tells you anything you want to know about dwarfs and has a guide to set up a tank for them.
Just research

 

[sueandherzoo]

Thanks Guys -- I'm convinced. I knew there was a something nagging at me about going forward with the dwarves when I woke up this morning but I couldn't put my finger on it. I think the pressure and responsibility of making sure they always have freshly hatched food 24/7 was turning me off. That's when this hobby could quickly become a "chore" and might discourage me before I've had the chance to fully enjoy the hobby. And if I was already thinking of "upgrading" to large horses in the future, why not just start out that way?
The real thing that changed my mind is finances. I checked the balance in my "slush fund" and it's a lot higher than I thought it was, so now I'm thinking I should set it up right the first time, get exactly what I want, and not have any regrets.
So now I have to go read up on the best set up for full-sized horses. But even though I'm reading on several sites I really trust the feedback I get from here the most so feel free, any and all of you, to tell me what I want to buy to set up a horse tank. Obviously I won't be purchasing today - I have homework to do.
Thanks in advance.
Sue

 

[rykna]

pssssssssssssttt.....the pony set up

 

[novahobbies]

Sounds like you have some decisions to make!
Dingus: please understand that I am NOT disagreeing with you, but there are a couple places where you and I differ. I happen to think that seahorse keeping is fairly simple, as long as the aquarist is prepared.
That's the key, though, isn't it? Too many people come into this hobby by basically walking by the saltwater fish at their local P*co and deciding on the spot that they want a "nemo," or a "dory." They find the first tank they see, and without an ounce of research, buy the tank, the sand, the salt.....and if the salesperson is truly inept, the customer will walk out of the store with a fish the same day as their other purchases. It's scary, but we know it happens.
Seahorses are challenging, but when an informed hobbyist (and I think we both agree that Mrs. Sue here fits that bill) does the proper research and sets up the tank correctly, they're not impossible for beginners to keep. Again, I'm talking about "standard" sized horses...I have no experience whatsoever with dwarf species. You and I both know that setting up a seahorse tank is really quite different than setting up a normal reef or FOWLR tank.
The point I'm making with this rambling little speech is this: I think seahorses are challenging, but not impossible, for a new saltwater hobbyist to keep. If a new person follows the prescribed setup methods with patience, and keeps on top of their tank chemistry, I'd bet they would be perfectly successful.
Having said all this, and recognizing that it's bloody late for me, I'd tell Sue (and anyone else thinking of doing this!) to read, read, and read s'more before starting out on anything Saltwater....then decide if they want to try this or not. The RSM 34 gallon is barely tall enough for what she wants.....I would reccomend a 37 gallon tall tank or a 45 gallon tall. The 45 especially has the added benefit of handling more gallonage, thus making the system more stable.
But hey, I'm just muttering to myself now. It's late, and I have to remember it's not my tank I'm setting up!

 

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2792434
pssssssssssssttt.....the pony set up

LOL When you say "pony" tank, are you referring to dwarves? Tell me something I can feed them BESIDES BBS and I'll reconsider. But having to keep a hatchery going (lights, pumps) and constantly sterilizing and monitoring it sounds like the part that would take the "fun" out of this hobby for me. I'm going to have a big enough challenge keeping the horses alive, let alone making sure their food is thriving too! Unless they eat mealworms of course - I'm raising those in my spare bedroom and in my refrigerator anyway so what's a few more.

I haven't bought anything yet so feel free to tell me why "ponies" should be my choice.
Sue
P.S. Maybe we should post a "poll" .... full-sized versus dwarves

 

[sueandherzoo]

Yes I do have some decisions to make but wouldn't it be wonderful if all of our tough decisions were hobby-related? This is FUN stuff! I consider myself very blessed to be "struggling" with a "problem" like this.
You guys playing Devil's Advocate is great - it helps me (us) see both sides of the equation and make an informed decision or at least a guesstimated one.
I saw one of those spontaneous impulse buys happen while I was at the LFS yesterday. I SO wanted to jump in and save the poor fish that are doomed to die.... the kids wanted a Nemo and Dorey and the parents were entertaining the idea. I don't know how far they got - I had to walk away before I did something to upset the store employees.
Yup - I'm still reading, even on the few hours of sleep I got last night since I was up so late reading!
Keep those cards and letters coming - I'm taking it all in and learning a lot.
And thanks for the vote of confidence, Nova.

Sue

 

[dingus890]

Originally Posted by novahobbies
http:///forum/post/2792437
Sounds like you have some decisions to make!
Dingus: please understand that I am NOT disagreeing with you, but there are a couple places where you and I differ. I happen to think that seahorse keeping is fairly simple, as long as the aquarist is prepared.
Sorry if I sounded like a downer in my post...lol...I just don't want you, Sue to jump into something since you have other responsibilitys.As you have said you don't want it to become a chore.

Seahorses are very simple to keep if you have experience.I never said they were impossible but for someone that has no experience in saltwater,it may be challenging and overwelming as a first tank.
With a seahorse tank you need to research like crazy and not just go out to the store on a whim and buy a set up(As most would like to do and as I almost did when I first started)Seahorses can be done for a new hobbist but it may be overwelming since they do require much better water quality and frequent water changes due to the feeding schedule.I know it personally would have overwelmed me if it was my first tank.
Just do alot of research.

It is really worth it Sue when you get your horses

You will talk yourself out of horses many times, Sue but just keep researching.Once you feel confident about horses,then you are ready for your horses.

PS.I would have been like you Sue and had to walk away before I grabbed the fish and ran out saving them...lol

You also may not want to buy from that store if they are just in it to make money and will sell to people knowing the fish wont make it.

 

[sueandherzoo]

Yup, you're right, Dingus, after a couple hours of reading and finding conflicting theories and getting re-confused after I THINK I finally have the perfect set up in mind, I do think (for a half a minute or so) that I should throw in the towel and just focus on my little 12 gallon Eclipse. But the thing is I know that it will still be a long time before I will actually be getting to the "seahorse" part. I know I have a LONG wait even after I finally make all my informed purchases because then I have to set it up, let it run, and let it become "seasoned" and established and mature before I throw any of those precious creatures in there. So even though it may seem like I'm jumping in, all I'm trying to do is get the equipment purchased so I can put the water and sand and decorations in and let it sit. THEN will come the time when you will all have to tie me down to keep me from buying too soon!
I'm leaning towards building my own tank, probably between 34-40 gallons, and at least 20" tall. Then I need the BEST filtration I can fit in it/on it to keep the water as pristine as possible.
I'm still not sure, though..... do I use live sand and live rock in a horse tank? I think I can, right? Or should I play it safe and buy base rock and add liquid bacteria to get things growing?
Thinking outloud again . . . bear with me or jump in and interrupt me as you see fit.
Sue

 

[novahobbies]

Originally Posted by SueAndHerZoo
http:///forum/post/2793198
I'm still not sure, though..... do I use live sand and live rock in a horse tank? I think I can, right? Or should I play it safe and buy base rock and add liquid bacteria to get things growing?
Sue
You shouldn't have any problems pairing regular seahorses with live rock. Does your LFS sell cured live rock? It'll be in huge tubs if they do. The variety of life on live rocks is astounding. There are pests to watch out for, to be sure, but the positive features of live rock outweighs the negatives in every aspect. The two biggest pests in our aquaria are bristleworms and mantis shrimp. Bristleworms are hardly even a pest, in fact......they eat detritus and usually stay out of the way. Mantis shrimp should be trapped and disposed of if found, but they can be hard to track down. Since you're setting up the tank, you can listen to the tank at night when the lights are off. If you hear a clicking sound from your "bare" rockwork, there's a good chance a mantis is in there. Do a google search and read up on de-pesting live rock before you add it to the tank...there are a couple ways to do this easily.
Live sand....is a gimmick. Sorry, it just is. What is often marketed as "live" sand is just sand with bacteria....it lacks the worms, pods, and other inhabitants that make sand truly live. You can just as easily buy dry sand and bum a cup of established sand from one of your LFS's display tanks...that one cup will contain enough bacteria to get the cycle started.
Now just so you know, I fell for the live sand trick. I had a hard time finding the sand color I wanted as dead dry sand, so it was an excus for me to buy the other stuff. True, I did find a couple isopods that had somehow survived in the bag, but I think it was a lucky draw.

 

[sueandherzoo]

I'm so glad to hear I can use live rock in the horse tank because I LOVE live rock. Yes, it's costly, but it's so well worth the cost of entertainment. Since I've had my 12 gallon up and running about 10 weeks with barely anything in it it's the live rock that has kept me entertained and amused. I sit for hours and stare with a magnifying glass and flashlight and am amazed at the stuff I see. My husband has bought me a visor with built in magnifying glass and lights on it, and he bought me a flashlight with a red lens so I can stare at creatures after the lights are off. Thank goodness he accepts that I'm looney and supports it.

Yes, my local LFS has some awesome live rock that he keeps right in the tanks.... I can bring a bucket of salt water with me to the store and it will never have to dry out. I know real well what mantis sound like.... I currently have a tiger pistol shrimp in my 12 gallon and I sometimes hear him snapping at night. And regarding the sand, I have lots left from the first batch I bought so I'll use that. It says it's "live" but it's not in water so how "live" can it be?
Hey, did Rykna ever get back to us with what that stuff is she uses to cover the heater and other stuff in her tanks????
OK, more reading to do.... be back soon.
Sue