Help@@@nitrate Problems@@@@

lluv24

Member
okay as far as tacking out bioball what can i put in that spot the water just drippes over that space,can i transform some sourt of cheato there? tell me how to do it.
 
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vince-1961

Guest
The only point to the bioballs is to provide surface area upon which bacteria may live. You could substitute LR rubble or almost anything else that you think will provide more surface area than bio-balls, which really do not provide that much surface area compared to LR or TUFA rock, etc. One option, the one I selected, is to spend $50 and purchase a 12" x 12" x 4" block of man-made, extremely porous, rock-like "stuff" (meaning I have no idea what it's made of), keep it above the water-line and run the draining water over it.
Just don't use lava rocks.
EDIT: just remember that the only function those bacteria serve is to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.
Nitrate is the end result of the process. That's what you really need to worry about.
RE-EDIT: since the advent of bio-balls, we've discovered that a sufficient amount of LR in your DT obviates the need for any wet/dry media on which bacteria can live, b/c there's enough bacteria on the LR in the DT to do the job. IMHO, your sump should be dedicated to cheato (to feed off nitrate and thereby remove it) and a refugium to grow copepods or whatever else you might fancy.
RE-RE-EDIT: the only reason I got that 12" x 12" x 4" block suspended in the air was bad advice from my LFS. He told me that anaerobic bacteria would grow deep inside it, but only if I kept it in the air. He was wrong, I have since learned. Anearobic bacteria (oxygen-less) convert nitrate to gaseous nitrogen.
 

todj2002

Member
cheato in ur sump will consume the nitates. also the algae that grows on scrubber will do the same. this combined with water changes should give u the results ur looking for. i am a huge slacker on water changes and my tank is thriving and n and p are always zero. i also have only 3 fish in my 55 gallon. less poop.
 
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vince-1961

Guest
TODJ, isn't the scubber noisy and messy? (splashes?) I recall the general idea of a scrubber was to drain water into a 5g bucket over a clump of red macroalgae suspended in the bucket, with the water draining out the bottom of the bucket.
 

todj2002

Member
hold on i will try to find a pic of mine or the link where i learned about them. there r so many different variations its crazy.
 

bulldog123

Member
Bio-balls have water drain over them not submerged. Live rock has to stay submerged. Correct%%. If so how would you replace the bio-balls with live rock(in the same space)?
 
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vince-1961

Guest
Originally Posted by Bulldog123
http:///forum/post/3117917
Bio-balls have water drain over them not submerged. Live rock has to stay submerged. Correct%%. If so how would you replace the bio-balls with live rock(in the same space)?
you don't, at least not with good LR. Save good LR for the DT. Use rubble instead or anything thing else that provides surface area but won't harm your tank. The more surface area the more bacteria.
EDIT: TODJ, yep, been there, done that thread. Still I ask: Isn't it noisy and messy?
 

bulldog123

Member
Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3117920
you don't, at least not with good LR. Save good LR for the DT. Use rubble instead or anything thing else that provides surface area but won't harm your tank. The more surface area the more bacteria.
I agree with most of this but everything I have ever read/told LR or rubble has to be underwater. If this is not the case could you please point me to the info.
 

todj2002

Member
Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3117920
you don't, at least not with good LR. Save good LR for the DT. Use rubble instead or anything thing else that provides surface area but won't harm your tank. The more surface area the more bacteria.
EDIT: TODJ, yep, been there, done that thread. Still I ask: Isn't it noisy and messy?
no. not at all. no noise. i have just recently built a new one but im to tired to get pics right now. my crazy kids r still up and were all going to bed NOW! if u read all those pages, at least skimmed them you would see that there are many different variations and not messy. the worst part i guess is cleaning it. mine is very easy though. pull to pins to release sceen, clean 50 percent of it off and put it back. will try to post some picst tomorrow.
 
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vince-1961

Guest
Originally Posted by Bulldog123
http:///forum/post/3117926
I agree with most of this but everything I have ever read/told LR or rubble has to be underwater. If this is not the case could you please point me to the info.
I am not going to spend the time to go back and find out where I first learned this, so instead, let's just analyze it.
Aerobic bacteria break down ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate. The bacteria need a place to live. That's called surface area. They also need oxygen. There is more oxygen in air than in water. Therefore, the whole point to the "wet/dry" was to get surface area out of the water and into the air. If there is enough LR in your DT to provide enough surface area for enough bacteria to break down the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate such that testing for ammonia and nitrite gives 0 for a result, then there is no need for any more surface area upon which to cultivate more bacteria. There ought always to be sufficient oxygen in the water in the DT to allow the aerobic bacteria on the LR to survive, especially since protein skimmers and sumps oxygenate the water. The bottom line is that if you have enough LR in the DT, you don't need any "wet/dry" system at all.
But to answer your question, the operation of the sump and the protein skimmer add enough oxygen to the water so that you need not pull the surface area out of the water into the air, where there is more oxygen.
 

lluv24

Member
hello everone, okay now back to the bioballs!! so i can take them out and replace them with lr rubble pieces? also remember it will not be totally in the water the water just drips on it in the area i have space for is this right or wrong?
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I so wish I did not drink at dinner. So here is my watered down post
The only point to the bioballs is to provide surface area upon which bacteria may live. You could substitute LR rubble or almost anything else that you think will provide more surface area than bio-balls, which really do not provide that much surface area compared to LR or TUFA rock, etc.
This is so wrong its funny. Take a piece of live rock measure the area exposed to your tank water then take a single bio ball and measure all exposed area to water in your trickle system. Multiply that by the number of bioballs needed to equal the area of your rock. No contest
to feed off nitrate and thereby remove it) and a refugium to grow copepods or whatever else you might fancy.
Assimilation does not remove nitrates until harvested
The bottom line is that if you have enough LR in the DT, you don't need any "wet/dry" system at all.
Live rock in no way guarantees nitrification or denitrification
hello everone, okay now back to the bioballs!! so i can take them out and replace them with lr rubble pieces? also remember it will not be totally in the water the water just drips on it in the area i have space for is this right or wrong?
For any denitrification to take place with in live rock you need the rock submerged in your tank as this denitrification takes place via advection
 
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vince-1961

Guest
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3118506
This is so wrong its funny. Take a piece of live rock measure the area exposed to your tank water then take a single bio ball and measure all exposed area to water in your trickle system. Multiply that by the number of bioballs needed to equal the area of your rock. No contest
I disagree. Take a typical piece of LR rubble, lava rock or Tufa rock or whatever other POROUS rock you may choose that is the same overall size as a bio-ball, compare the surface area and you will find that the bioball has a much smaller number, because the bioball is not porous and has no surface area inside, unlike the LR which is porous and has more surface area than the bio ball by a factor of 10 or 100 or more.
EDIT: how the heck are you able to do more than 1 "quote" per post? Haven't figure that one out yet.
 

spanko

Active Member
See the little page with the qoute marks on it next to the quote button at the bottom of a post, right side. Just click that in each post you want to quote then push the Post Reply button.
 
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vince-1961

Guest
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3118506
For any denitrification to take place with in live rock you need the rock submerged in your tank as this denitrification takes place via advection
Except for extremely large pieces of LR, large enough to provide areas deep inside of no or extremely low oxygen, no denitrfication occurs in LR.
If you can explain how LR can remove nitrates otherwise, I'm all ears.
 
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