Help! Scratching Has Spread

[jessicarabit]

I had a recent death of a unknown species of tang. <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" /> He never showed signs of scratch, but during his stay my blue hippo & coral beauty starting this scratching dance. Mostly the blue hippo & mostly on the conch shell where my mating percs had taken residence. I had my yellow tang in isolation due to aggression during the intro of the unknown tang & now that I put him back in the main tank he started showing this scratching too!! My LFS told me to move all the decorations & LR around to re-establish territories, but when my yellow tang started scratching I knew I had a parasite!! They then told me to lower salinity to 17 or 18 slowly over
3 days & keep it there for 3 weeks, which I have to admit having perfect water AM-0, NI-0, NA-5, PH has fluctuated between 8.0-8.2 (is this a factor?), that my salinity has fluctuated from 21-24 (another factor). Also, since the weather changed my temp jumped to 82 degrees @ the top & the bottom was 80. I have been playing with those inaccurate knobs & placement of the heater...with a 55 degree angle, but I have still had fluctuating (2 or 3 degrees) temps (yet another factor). I was told that a cleaner wrasse & cleaner shrimp could help my situation, but not while I was lowering the salinity. Which one is beneficial for the moment, because I plan on getting the cleaner wrasse & shrimp <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> I also removed that conch shell & discovered what I think appeared to be left-over remains of it's inhabitant <img src="graemlins//bah.gif" border="0" alt="[bah]" /> & it was creating a odor something fierce! How did the percs live in there? (add another factor) Oh, I have been adding Marine-Max (disease prevention & antioxidants & vitamins for 3x a wk for 2 wks. Anyone out there to offer advice?? P.S. would a freshwater bath to ALL the fish be helpful??

 

[wolfeel]

Jessica,
You have a whole lot of problems! First always know what species of fish/invert you are adding to your tank! A good rule of thumb is to quarantine all new inhabitants, in a seperate system, for 30 days to keep all of your show animals safe! I'm assuming that this is a fish only tank...if so you have a few options.
1. If it is a protozoan parasite, you can do a copper treatment or a formalin treatment and feed the fish a metronidazole medicated food. Follow all directions!
2. If it is a trematode problem, do a formalin treatment.
3. Keep your water quality parameters constant!!! Nothing stresses a fish out more than fluctuations in temperature. Get a heater that works. Even 2-3 degree fluctuations can stress a fish out, making it more susceptible to disease. Also high temps lower DO levels causing yet more health problems. If you cannot keep your tank below 80F, you need a chiller (very expensive).
4. Make sure you know where all your animals are, the fact that you didn't know you had a dead invert is troublesome. Always have your animals into account.
5. When doing medicated treatments make sure that you take out any filter floss or carbon.
If you invertebrates in your tank, you need to remove the fish or the inverts to another tank. You cannot treat a tank with copper or formalin with invertebrates. There are some reef safe products, i.e. Chem Marin Stop Parasite, but this stuff is only effective in the earliest possible stages of the infestation.
Salinity drops are only band-aids, many protozoans can encyst and break out again when the coast is clear! Fresh water dips are an option but should only be performed by advanced aquarists...too many factors can go wrong for an inexperienced hobbyist.
Good Luck...I hope all your fish make it through!
wolfie

 

[wolfeel]

Jessica,
P.S. If you get cleaning animals (which are beneficial), you cannot use in tank medicated treatments that are not reef safe. Cleaner shrimp would be your best bet if you go that route, and feed the fish medicated fish food. Don't buy cleaner gobies because they tend not to do well in small aquariums.
wolfie

 

[jessicarabit]

Thanks wolfeel. The whole conch shell thing was a fluke...it was a large decorative piece from my roomies collection, in which she has had for yrs. I think i would have notice any smell or decay well before I put it in (I did rinse). I feel you on the unknown species advise. I must say that my LFS has always giving quality advise & livestock. I always ask (with some reading up on & common sense) for their recommendation & get the well know higher quality?: w/d (A-Miracle), reef & invertebrate safe meds (Marine Max, Kick-Ick, Ammo Lock 2 & Aqua Plus conditioner), salt (Tropic Marine) & water filter/purifier (Kent Marine Maxxima/R/Hi-S). Here's a scenario...In my 20 gal hospital treat all my fish (no live rock) with this copper based med & food you referred too & lower my salinity next to nothing in my main tank?? What about lower the salinity in my hospital while being medicated? I really need this to work & do appreciate all the help/advice.

 

[wolfeel]

Jessica,
You last wrote "Here's a scenario...In my 20 gal hospital treat all my fish (no live rock) with this copper based med & food you referred too & lower my salinity next to nothing in my main tank?? What about lower the salinity in my hospital while being medicated? I really need this to work & do appreciate all the help/advice"
Here's what I would do...
1. If you feel comfy doing a FW dip, dip your fish before you put them in your Q tank. That will remove external free swimming stages.
2. Keep your salinity normal in your Q tank, lower salinity is not the answer it only band-aids the problem, you need to treat it!
3. Use a copper or formalin treatment, but beware these can both hurt your biological so just keep a close eye on your chems.
4. Your fish may go off feed because of the meds in the water, if they won't accept the Metronidazole flake food (Tetra anti-parisite, I hope you can find it), or you can crush the Metronidazole tabs into DI water and put live brine in the mix, the brine shrimp will uptake the meds and your fish may be more likely to eat the brine. The brine will need to soak for about an hour. Last alternative, if you feed them freeze dried algae, you can soak the algae in the meds. You need to do the meds in food for 5 days, feed them regular food for about 3 days and then give them the med food for another 5 days. I know this sounds labor intensive with the brine, but I've saved many fish this way.
5. Do a 50% water change on your show tank with a really good gravel vacuum. Do another 50% water change with a good gravel vacuum two weeks from now. You'll need to keep your kids in Qtine for at least 3-4 weeks to make sure the life cycle has been complete. Keep your show tank chems going strong (maybe add a piece or two of shrimp to decay to keep your biological up). Without a host (fish) in the tank the parasite cannot reproduce.
6. Before everyone goes back into the show tank after treatment, buy a pair of skunk cleaner shrimp to help keep your fish healthy.
7. Lastly, before you put the kids back into their show tank, you may want to FW dip them on the way back in. If you don't know how to do a FW dip let me know.
Sorry this is long winded, but I want to give your fish a good chance.
Good Luck!
wolfie
P.S. You'll need to clean your qtine tank really well, and not put new fish in their for holding for at least a month!

 

[jessicarabit]

Wolfeel, you are a god-send!! I was discussing the same (close to) idea you expressed to do with my roommate. Just to reconfirm, you are in agreement with removal of the kids to a FW dip, then to a Q tank with or without LR?? then treated with a definite copper &/or formalin treatment?? I got the care on the show tank (I don't have any substrate...this is good??) & on what to do on giving med food (my kids have GOOD appetites). I still want to confirm if I need LR in my Q tank &/or my show tank (both at present) & to leave my invertebrates in the show tank. With the 20 gal Q tank will a medium yellow tang, 2 mated percs, a (damn) damsel, a coral beauty & a mandarin (I lost the regal <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" /> ) be cozy for a month (space wise)?? I also don't want or need a protein skimmer & carbon (I have an AquaClear 150 in my Q tank & top Power Head with air bubbles & a bottom PH)?? I want you to know I am not inexperienced as I may seem, but I have never had an infestation of any kind in the yrs w/both SW & FW. So info on FW dip is GREATLY appreciated & I would rather have long winded, than barely scratching the surface any day when it comes to the babies. Thanks A Whole Bunch

 

[jessicarabit]

Ed, I can tell you over the period of 2 wks approximately, all I have seen (slowly with my regal <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" /> showing it 1st) have been scratching, which led to 'markings/scratch lines' on his body.
My angel started, but not so frequently about a week ago & after 4 days from bully isolation (got a refugium) started a medium amount of this...my clowns & mandarin show no signs. So can u give me a recommendation on what kind of treatment, reef safe maybe? Ever heard of the Tropical Science brand? Seems to have help with prevention in the past. I do feel my mistake (never happen again) was adding the unknown tang & the stress from the bullying & transport into the main tank. 30 days
in isolation tank for new arrivals forever (I learned)!! I still need to know if I need to remove my live rock when treating with copper, hoping I can find as an effective reef safe med. Also, can I leave them in the main tank with this treatment & do I lower the salinity as you mentioned while this goes on? I have to make my final choice in 3 hrs before the store opens. Thanks so very much...I do luv these babies (2 deaths is draining).

 

[wolfeel]

Jessica,
Leave your show tank as is, no meds, no low salinity (my opinion still) (esp. if you have inverts), but I would still recommend the water changes and gravel vac's, it's better to be safer than sorry. It needs to be fish (host) free for a month.
Quarantine tank...no live rock, no substrate (PVC and plastic flower pots work great for cheap structure and hiding). It'll be tight for the fish, but they might die in the other tank. Anthem is right, make sure you are diagnosing the right disease before you treat, copper will have no effect on trematodes if that is the case.
FW dip: In a seperate container, you'll want to use your system water combined with DI water to make 3-5ppt. Never use straight DI. Temp and pH of your dip water should match your system water. You don't want your fish going into pH shock. Place one fish at a time for 2-3minutes in the dip. If your fish appears too stressed, move him out immediately. The fish should remain upright the entire 2-3 minutes. Watch your mandarin and angel carefully.
No carbon (it'll remove the meds). I still do not agree with long term low salinity as a treatment. I have seen too many resistances and reocurrances and especially angels do not do well with salinity down to 15ppt for extended periods of time! That decision you will have to make with the information you have.
It is also correct that you have to hit your target value with your meds or the treatment won't work. Follow the directions on your treatment and test twice per day to make sure that you are reaching the appropriate levels.
Sory to hear about your Regal...that bites!
Good Luck!
wolfie

 

[wolfeel]

Terry,
To try to briefly answer you questions, I have many years experience as a professional aquarist and a home hobbyist, (FW and SW) and have used the low salinity treatment on several occasions for SW protozoan (Crypt & Amyloodinium) outbreaks with minimal success in both a professional quarantine and exhibit setting. We used 11-14ppt for 4-6 weeks. Animals were still dropping off at 6 weeks and necropsies showed all stages of the life cycle. Upon raising the salinity for the surviviors, it started all over again. Success rate: about 40-50%. The more delicate fish (angels and butterflies, some wrasses) were hit hardest by the salinity drop. I have never observed increased activity during a hypo treatment, just the opposite. Our staff was very knowledgeable/experienced and very aseptic (no contamination). We used refractometers to monitor daily salinity and the make up water was kept at 10-11ppt. No equipment problems. I know there have been studies on hypo treatments and I've read up on it, but for the practical application, IMO, long term success was not there. Formalin and Copper worked best for us for protozoan outbreaks. Success rate: 80-90%.
I have had very good success using FW dips for many different species of protozoa, trematodes and copepods. This was certainly not the entire/only treatment that was used, but it provides immediate relief to the fish. The in tank meds provided the rest. I do not advocate this to the inexperienced hobbyist, as I previously stated, and it should only be used by experienced aquarists and hobbyists. Metro is a great protozoacide given in food that assists during treatment. It doesn't work for flukes, etc...(we can have a whole other discussion on trematode treatments )
There are many different schools of thought for different disease outbreaks and lots of different folks use different treatments, as you're well aware. I respect everyone's thoughts/ideas and experiences, just don't agree with all of them, as you have differing opinions also. Ultimately the best treatments are good husbandry/maintenance, water quality, nutrition and knowing your animals, so the second something is off, you can be on top of it.
If you'd like to chat about this further, feel free to ask the moderators for my email address, it is not posted in my profile. I love to talk about fish, I'm probably one of the biggest fish geeks you'll ever talk to!
wolfie