Help setting up Sump/Fuge

[loodachris]

Hello all! I am helping my coworker set up his new 36 gallon bow... He would like all his filters and skimmer and Heater underneath the tank so they arent visible. Obviously a sump is what he needs. What is the best way to do this? 10-15 gal tank underneath? What kind of flow would we need to and from the tank/sump? Just two powerheads and some tubing? Any advice? I havent done these for mine. Also how could we put a fuge in there? Any help would be awesome!

 

[zenway9]

i want to know the same things. I am getting close on grasping the concept, but I need a little help. I have a 50 gallon and want to set up a 20 gallon sump/fuge. Please help me also!

 

[lepete]

Set up at least 20 gallons. You will need to allow room for water from your maintain to drain down during a power outage.
Unless you tank is 'pre-drilled', you'll need an overflow. This is a unit that hangs on the rear of your main tank. Its job is to move water from the main tank to the sump. The water will flow from the main tank, through a 'U Tube' over the tank, then to the sump through a hose. Due to design, the siphoning will not break during a power outage.
You need a pump, not a powerhead, to move water back into your main tank from the sump. The powerhead will not operate due to the head pressure going from the sump to the tank.

 

[zenway9]

What size pump do I need? Also, I need equal GPH coming into the sump/fuge as the output, right?

 

[lepete]

The GPH in/out of the sump will balance itself.
I like the flow through my sump to be 5x of the main tank. I think most overflow are rated at around 800 GPH. So, make sure your return pump doesnt pump anywhere close to 800 GPH. Your overflow will operate at the same GPH as your return pump.
Also, when you look at return pump, take into consideration your head pressure. If you pump from the floor to the top of the aquarium, that's about 4-5 feet of pressure. And, it's around 1 feet of pressure per 90 degree turn (less with 2 45 degree turns).

 

[loodachris]

Hmm... call me a moron but this seems kind of confusing. I understand the concept I THINK, how do i set up the overflow?

 

[hurt]

I currently run a 55g with a 20g sump/fuge. I have right around 600gph of "actual" flow going through my fuge. I would like to get up between 700-800gph, since I use Chaeto as a my macro. But as for the overflow and return pump, you want to make sure your return pump is not putting more flow into the DT, than the overflow can handle. It's alright to have less, just not more "actual" flow. If you have more than the overflow can handle you will overflow your DT.
But generally speaking you want to have the overflow capability very close to the "actual" flow of the fuge/sump, just not more than. If you have a large difference, say a 600 gph overflow with only 250 gph going through it, you will most likely have air-bubbles build up in the top of the U-tube and this will eventually case your overflow to lose siphon. A 1 inch U-tube is capable of handling up to 600gph, so if you use only one 1 in U-tube, you don't want your return pump to be putting more than 600gph back into your DT, at the return.
And Lepete is right on about calculating the "actual" gph, not the gph most pumps list at 0 feet. This is the most common mistake I see people making when setting up their sump or fuge.
Also when making a fuge or sump make sure you design with extra room to take on excess water in the event of a power outage. When this happens your DT will drain down to either the top of the overflow intake or the return pipe, whichever is lower. For instance, in my system, my 20g fuge normally runs with only 15-16 gallons. This is because when the power goes out my DT will put another 2-3 gallons into my fuge.
Also, your H20 level in your DT will remain constant, the only place H20 will fluctuate through evaporation is your sump/fuge.
Here is pic I took when I turned my return pump off to simulate a power outage. You will see my fuge is almost full, and my DT in down 2-3inches.

 

[hurt]

I think most overflow are rated at around 800 GPH. So, make sure your return pump doesnt pump anywhere close to 800 GPH.
I'm a little lost/confused on this statement? Do you mean more or less at 0 feet?

 

[tscuda]

In mine I keep about 13-14 gal in a 20 gal tank. When you add the water to the sump make a mark on the glass and adjust your over flow to keep the water level there. That makes it easier for topping off and water changes.

 

[lepete]

Originally Posted by Hurt
I'm a little lost/confused on this statement? Do you mean more or less at 0 feet?
If your overflow is rated at 800 GPH. This means that your overflow will drop 800 GPH down to your sump. Thus, make sure your return pump pumps less than 800 GPH at how ever feet to travel from your sump to the top of your main tank.
For example:
Take a Danner Supreme Mag-Drive 9.5. At 0 head (drop it in the bathtub not connecting to any pipework), it'll pump 950 gph. However, at 7 feet of head pressure (5 feet to the top of the aquarium, 2 90 degree turns), this pump will only pump 660 GPH.
An overflow rated at 800 GPH will be able to handle this pump outputing 660 GPH.

 

[zenway9]

Hey Hurt,
Thank for the valuable info. I have a couple more questions...
1) do you have a drawing of your sump?
2) what is your baffle placement (distances between)
3) what do you have on the end of your ouput tubing (in the tank)

 

[loodachris]

Hurt, is that you cat getting into the sump??

 

[kengaroo]

"But generally speaking you want to have the overflow capability very close to the "actual" flow of the fuge/sump, just not more than. If you have a large difference, say a 600 gph overflow with only 250 gph going through it, you will most likely have air-bubbles build up in the top of the U-tube and this will eventually case your overflow to lose siphon. A 1 inch U-tube is capable of handling up to 600gph, so if you use only one 1 in U-tube, you don't want your return pump to be putting more than 600gph back into your DT, at the return."
I constantly have a air bubble at the top of my 1 inch U-tube. When I start the flow, there is no bubble, but after a day or two the bubble appears and starts to grow. I haven't have any breakage yet. Does this mean I need a higher output pump? My current pump outputs 300gph and my the return tube from the sump to my tank is around 5 feet. The end of the tube has 2 90 degrees angles. Can someone tell me how large of an output should I get to avoid the air bubble?

 

[hurt]

hus, make sure your return pump pumps less than 800 GPH at how ever feet to travel from your sump to the top of your main tank.
I agree that you don't want your return pump to be putting more "actual" flow back into your tank than the overflow is rated for. That being said you first have to figure out the "actual" flow by calculating head height and turns in your return line.
But you said, so make sure your return pump doesn't pump anywhere close to 800gph- with a 800gph overflow, and that's where I'm lost. By "anywhere close" what exactly do your mean? I am assuming you mean you want a pump rated for more flow than 800 at 0 feet-right? If so, I agree. Idealy you want the actual flow going back into the tank to be just a little less than the overflow is capable of-50gph less for instance.

 

[hurt]

1) do you have a drawing of your sump?

Yep-here is my sad attempt at MS Paint.

 

[hurt]

2) what is your baffle placement (distances between)
My fuge is 20g long or 30 inches long. From right to left, the first baffle is 5 inches from the right, the second is 7 inches from the right and the third is 26 inches from the right. Each baffle is roughly 8 and 3/4 inches high. But you don't have to follow my dimensions by any means. I just kind of figured out what I needed with my setup. Put your return pump in the return chamber and see how much space you need? If you have an in-sump skimmer, you will want to make the first chamber larger. So, what I am trying to say is build your sump/fuge around your equipment. Don't glue the baffles in place until you are sure everything fits.

 

[hurt]

3) what do you have on the end of your ouput tubing (in the tank)
I'm a little confused by what you mean. Do you mean my return line?
Loodachris--Fischjaeger is always trying to get my fish, hence the name.

 

[hurt]

Kengaroo-You could try two different things. If you have a 1 inch U-tube, I am assuming your overflow is rated for 600gph and this is where your problem arises with your return pump. If you mean your return pump is rated at 300gph at 0 feet, going up 5 feet with some turns will drastically cut this output. But even at 300gph on a 600gph overflow you will have troubles. First you could but a 3/4 inch U-tube to slow this down from 600gph. And second you could add another inch to your overflow drain in the outside chamber. Here is a drawing of what I mean.