HELP - Something terrorizing my tank

[overanalyzer]

OK all - Broncofish and I have been scratching our heads over why I can't seem to keep certain critters alive. Well he's been so busy lately I have not really talked with him lately and I am totally stumped.
Had a Austrailian lime green wrasse - took it back. so I have a a 140 with a sump and refugium. I have one candy cane frag and some yellow polyps and about 100 pounds of LR and a bunch of LS (4-6" sand bed).
Got the rocks and sand from a local reefer tearing down his tank. I have put in a handful of snails and they never seem to last - even though I have more algea than I no what to do with (hair -ugh). Well I finish cycling and lethe tank age another 3 weeks. Add wrasse - remove wrasse after watchign him eat a blue leg.
Wait 2 weeks - levels all test out @ 0 and Alk a little low. Buffer to get it up.
Add 4 chromis. one dies right away (day two) but he also went carpet surfing when adding him to the tank. Clumsy me. Three school up NP.
a Week or two later another gone. Then Monday found one floating. And now today last one is gone.
I then find a blue leg out its shell. Poor guy.
ONly known live inhabitants are two small emeralds and a couple of smaller blue legs and some small brittle stars (tiny white guys). Some hitchiker snails and a hitchhiker scarlet hermit.
No clikcing noises. Snals getting harrased and dieing. Water tested twice by two different LFSs for copper .... both turn up 0. Right now
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = .5 ppm
Ammoinia is just over 0.
I have 30 gallons of aged mixed saltware for a water change on Sunday .....
what is pulling my blue legs out of its shell??
It is driving me nuts. I have a ton of extra shells littering the tank - hell the only thing I have in the tank now is extra shells and hair algea .....
I am so frustrated.
I will be making a trap with the panty hose and shrimp tomorrow night and I am typing this with no lights on to see if I can find the culprit .....
arghh super frustrated .....
anyone - any ideas??
sorry about the long rant ......

 

[sammystingray]

Hows the phosphates? Sometimes chromis schools go sour with fighting, but usually one is left in the end......makes you wonder. No telling what the guy you bought the rocks and sand from had put in there......and I doubt he would admit it anyway.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by sammystingray
Hows the phosphates? Sometimes chromis schools go sour with fighting, but usually one is left in the end......makes you wonder. No telling what the guy you bought the rocks and sand from had put in there......and I doubt he would admit it anyway.
yeah I am beginng to wonder - it was a reef tank and the rocks that i put into my 20 with corlas on it are doing great .....
My last chromis has disappeared - which is what makes me think it is a "thing" not a checmical. I have seen a handful of stomatella's, several min-brittle stars, pods and such but nothing else...... Wonder if the scarlet crab is gettign a little territorial??
Ugh trying the trap tongiht will let you know what I catch .....

 

[overanalyzer]

OK 3rd LFs confirms - NO COPPER..... but my PH is 7.75 (hmmm buffering now) ..... so - question is - could my low PH be causing the freak out??

 

[shep]

as far as blueleggs do you have plenty of shells? One will kill another for a cool house on any given day.

 

[sammystingray]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
but my PH is 7.75 (hmmm buffering now) ..... so - question is - could my low PH be causing the freak out??
You obviously have some water stability issues......I would go with that.....put a post up for the water doctor broomer. One pH number is not one, but actually ten time difference from one number to the next........so it seems small, but isn't. 7 is ten times less than 8.....not one......the level of 8.25, a good level, is actually fives times higher than you have..........something like that......talk to someone who has more of a clue than me. Know what I mean though? 2 is actually ten times higher than 1, and 3 is ten times higher than 2.......your level is really low.

 

[broomer5]

Agree with Sammy.
I also think it's a water quality issue.
On this 140 gallon tank, do you by chance have "low" lighting ?
How about water circulation ?
What is your actual alkalinity reading ?
What time of day is the 7.75 pH reading ?
Here's what we know;
Low alk
Low pH
Hair algae
No copper
Things dying ( fish and inverts )
Low pH indicates more of an acidic condition. Your tankwater is still above neutral - but is relatively more acidic than natural seawater.
Acids pull down the pH.
When pH drops - the tankwater looks to it's buffering capacity for help.
As the pH is trying to be maintained - it pulls down the alkalinity.
If the alkalinity is already low to begin with - it gets even lower and the pH can NOT be kept up in the 8's
So where does the acids come from.
You don't seem to have a high bioload of fish/inverts in the tank.
The acid could be coming from the formation of carbonic acid.
Carbonic acid can be produced by H2O water and CO2 carbon dioxide.
If you have a lot of carbon dioxide gas in solution, this acid can form.
If you have limited water circulation in the tank - it makes it even worse.
On top of all this - if you happen to have low lighting, now you have a great condition for hair algae to grow.
Low lighting means a relatively lower rate of photosynthesis as compared to a high lighted tank.
Low photosynthesis means a relatively lower rate of CO2 being used up as compared to higher lighted tanks.
So you have tankwater that is low pH and low alk ( which hair algae seems to love )
Nuisance algae also seems to like poor lighting conditions too.
Either old bulbs, bulbs of the wrong spectrum and even lighting of "low" intensity. Hair algae seems to like everything we as reef keepers don't like.
High CO2 which makes more carbonic acid, which continues to pull down the pH, which continues to pull down the alk, which may be part of the problem. Is this 140 tank in a closed off room that does not receive much fresh outside air ?
Why are things dying ?
It sounds to me like the only things that are dying are "new" things added to the tank.
New fish die ( dissappear )
New snails die
The one blueleg that bailed out of it's shell - hard to tell why this happens because it's so common for them to do this anyway - even when things are great.
Existing Emeralds, hermit crabs and starfish still alive ....... they may be accustomed to the water quality.
New living things are struggling with the tankwater conditions ( like pH shock )
Getting the pH and alkalinty carbonate hardness UP would eliminate this from the puzzle.
I'm certainly not saying this IS what's wrong, but COULD be the cause.
( go BROWNS ! )

 

[overanalyzer]

I agree - the water quality is key.
Excellent explanation guys!!! OK - I will try to answer the question as best I can:
I've buffered since saturday - a couple of hours @ a time (who else gets up @ 2 AM to test and buffer their tank?). It is now up to 8.2 (as of last night). Now reading about he graduation though I think this was a pretty hasty increase.
My tank is in my basement - so it coudl be a lack of fresh air. But I have three powerheads in the tank plus a Mag 12 hooked to a scwd to return from the sump and refugium. I have plenty of riplling on the water surface but I do only have NO lights and tops on my tank right now. So I will remove the tank tops tonight .... see if that helps.
I've stopped running my lights for now - is that good or bad?
I will test Alk tonight when I get home and test PH @ the same time.
I am sure there are plenty of extra shells for those blue legs.
I have 30 Gallons of Salt mixing in a closed trash can right now. Once the Alk and PH and temp match I am planning a water change ....
Anything else??
Broomer thanks - those lousy Browns

 

[cathbad]

I knew a guy who could not keep anything for several months. We later learned that he initially washed the tank with Dawn. Could there have been anything like this involved at any point in time, rocks, sand, tank, etc. (particularly with the rock and sand)? Just a thought.

 

[dreeves]

How are you acclimating the inverts? What are you using for substrate?

 

[jonthefb]

whats the lighting in your fuge like?????? 24/7 or reverse cycle? the reasoin i ask i because if it is lit 24/7 the algae that is down there will constantly comsume carbon dioxide and release oxygen molecules....therefore helping to keep your pH up...IF you run your fuge on a reverse cycle, then whenever the lights are off, teh algae switches from consuming CO2 to comsuming o2 for the process of respiration!
good luck
jon

 

[jonthefb]

P.S. are you sure the two crabs are emerald crabs? if any of the rock came from the gulf of mexica, theres a chance you could have gorills crabs in the tank..gorillas look very similar to emeralds, however they arent safe, they are predatory and could be causign the loss fo life in your tank....just be sure they are emeralds!
good luck
jon

 

[overanalyzer]

No nothing in the tank to clean it other than water and elbow grease
Acclimating inverts via drip mehtod for over 2 hours (up to 4 hours)
Substrate - Deep Sand Bed from 4-6 inches
Refugium is light 24/7 with an 18 watt NO light
Purchased and adding hte emarld crabs myself from an LFS - both small with rounded claws ..... not ruling out a hithchiker of some sort. I have now seen 2 scarlet crabs which I have not added.

 

[overanalyzer]

OK test results ...
PH just under 8.2 (Color is darker than 8.0 and not quite the 8.2 color) and the Alk. is registering as 8.0 dKH
My mix water is still a bit lower in both measures so I will be slowly buffering that one up.
OK could I have one of those spearing matnis shrimps?? How big and common are they?? ONe guy at a local LFS thought I might have an octopus (that survived a cycle and these hellish conditions??) anyhow ..... why do I have critters getting shredded??
Lastly I noticed about 8 bluelegs still cruising the rocks ... so I will keep an eye on them and hopefully do a nice big water change here soon .....
Thanks for hte help all....

 

[broncofish]

My advice is, don't rule out the little creatures, but it is not an octopus, better odds of it being a Dragon from the Lonely mountain There is no way an octopus would pass through several owners, and then a couple of cycles. I say check your readings for a few weeks, and then if everything is still stable try adding some more stuff.

 

[overanalyzer]

Bronco - nice to hear from you!!! well two nights two pieces of dead shrimp in trap and I've only caught some of my blue legs and some bristle worms ......
Think I will do a water change here once I get the levels evened out. Replaced RO filters so hopefully my next batch of water is not so low in terms of PH ....