help with nitrates!!!!!!!

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tyler70

Guest
Ok so I switched from a 100gal which was up for three years to a 240 gallon tank." just ran out of room" I transfered all my live rock as well as the substrate and water from that tank into the new one. In the new tank I added an extra 80lbs of live rock for probably a total of 300 lbs in there roughly.In the new tank I have a rio hf 26 return pump with a cpr sump, It has a rio 1700 driving the protein skimmer and a 30 gallon refugium with a few mangoves and some macro algae in it with a three or four inch sand bed. I have a bunch of hydor koralias in the dt. I have the nitrate reducing media in two full bags in the sump as well as dosing the reef biofuel and microbactor seven to try and help lower the nitrates. I have lost 9 fish so far, 5 anthias, a dottyback, two firefish and an angel. This tank has been up for almost three months and the nitrates arnt going down. I do weekly 55 gallon water changes. I am thinking about doing 100 gallon changes every other day for a week to get this under control. My toadstool hasn't come out in a week and has brown algae on it. All my zoos, candycan, star polups, hermits and a couple other corals are doing fine. All my fish are getting cloudy eyes and my anonomes are shriveling up. Ammonia and nitrites are zer ph is 8 and salinity is at 1.26 i keep the tank between 79.9 and 80.4. I don't know what else to do but dump a ton of money into water changes. If anyone has any ideas id love to hear them asap.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler70 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3496961
Ok so I switched from a 100gal which was up for three years to a 240 gallon tank." just ran out of room" I transfered all my live rock as well as the substrate and water from that tank into the new one. In the new tank I added an extra 80lbs of live rock for probably a total of 300 lbs in there roughly.In the new tank I have a rio hf 26 return pump with a cpr sump, It has a rio 1700 driving the protein skimmer and a 30 gallon refugium with a few mangoves and some macro algae in it with a three or four inch sand bed. I have a bunch of hydor koralias in the dt. I have the nitrate reducing media in two full bags in the sump as well as dosing the reef biofuel and microbactor seven to try and help lower the nitrates. I have lost 9 fish so far, 5 anthias, a dottyback, two firefish and an angel. This tank has been up for almost three months and the nitrates arnt going down. I do weekly 55 gallon water changes. I am thinking about doing 100 gallon changes every other day for a week to get this under control. My toadstool hasn't come out in a week and has brown algae on it. All my zoos, candycan, star polups, hermits and a couple other corals are doing fine. All my fish are getting cloudy eyes and my anonomes are shriveling up. Ammonia and nitrites are zer ph is 8 and salinity is at 1.26 i keep the tank between 79.9 and 80.4. I don't know what else to do but dump a ton of money into water changes. If anyone has any ideas id love to hear them asap.
Hi,
Wow you do have some troubles. Nitrates do not cause the kind of problems you are having. It's something else. Post the numbers of your test results.
Did you cycle this tank before adding all the critters, and was the new rock cycled?
 
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tyler70

Guest
salinity 1.025
amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate between 40 and 80
I did not get to cycle the tank because I just put all my water rock fish etc in the new one on the same day. I did not have the room for both. My lfs said it would be ok because of the amount of live rock i had. The new live rock I added was cycled yes.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler70 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3496991
salinity 1.025
amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate between 40 and 80
I did not get to cycle the tank because I just put all my water rock fish etc in the new one on the same day. I did not have the room for both. My lfs said it would be ok because of the amount of live rock i had. The new live rock I added was cycled yes.
Just tossing some thoughts out there.....
Is it possible that you stirred up the sand and released some toxins? Running some carbon would help if that's the case. Another possibility is a foreign substance on your hands, in the tank or accidentally spilled into it. Did you acclimate the fish to the new tank just as though they were newly acquired? Are you sure that the SG in both tanks matched before you added the fish?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Use a voltmeter/multimeter to test your tank for stray voltage. Sounds like an electricity issue to me. Nitrate in only excess of 300+ would start to have deleterious effects on fish. Corals are much less tolerant but fish should be fine at nitrate in that range.
Did you actually test, or are you guessing?
Test your phosphate as well... even though that wouldn't cause fish loss.
Fish loss is almost always linked to a predator, electricity, inadequate diet, health issues, ammonia toxicity, or just simply old and ready... (There are others, but those are the main causes.)
 
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tyler70

Guest
I did stir the sand up when I changed it into the new tank but I also did acclimate the fish as if I was adding them into a new aquarium by letting water drip into the container they were in then pump a little back into the display tank for about an hour to get them adjusted. The water I added was ro/di water so the foreign substance shouldn't be a problem. I was reading about running carbon but it seems to have very mixed opinions on it. I guess at this point nothing could hurt. I have an api test kit that I have been testing with it's just hard to tell how red the nitrate test really is. Its definitely not yellow which is what I want.I do not have any stray voltage in the tank from what i can read. The fish that died were fairly new to ones that Ive had for a couple of years. What do you guys think about large water changes. Ive seen a ton of people that swear by them but then others that say your only perpetuating the problem.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler70 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497067
I did stir the sand up when I changed it into the new tank but I also did acclimate the fish as if I was adding them into a new aquarium by letting water drip into the container they were in then pump a little back into the display tank for about an hour to get them adjusted. The water I added was ro/di water so the foreign substance shouldn't be a problem. I was reading about running carbon but it seems to have very mixed opinions on it. I guess at this point nothing could hurt. I have an api test kit that I have been testing with it's just hard to tell how red the nitrate test really is. Its definitely not yellow which is what I want.I do not have any stray voltage in the tank from what i can read. The fish that died were fairly new to ones that Ive had for a couple of years. What do you guys think about large water changes. Ive seen a ton of people that swear by them but then others that say your only perpetuating the problem.
I would do a 30% water change and run carbon after. The only problems with carbon is if you don't rinse it....so just be sure to rinse it real good, and you won't have a problem with it at all.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
I would say maybe and issue with stirring up the sand on the swap over...., but the "cloudy" fish eyes......
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Sorry should have added I don't see any "negative" in running carbon.....and as you said couldn't hurt......
 
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tyler70

Guest
Thanks guys I will get carbon tomarrow. any suggestions on how much? I have been doing 55 gallon water changes weekly. Was thinking about doing a 100 gallon one one tuesday or wed I just ordered a ro/di unit so no more $1 a gallon for premixed saltwater. I also ordered a titanium ground for the tank just in case.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler70 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497184
Thanks guys I will get carbon tomarrow. any suggestions on how much? I have been doing 55 gallon water changes weekly. Was thinking about doing a 100 gallon one one tuesday or wed I just ordered a ro/di unit so no more $1 a gallon for premixed saltwater. I also ordered a titanium ground for the tank just in case.
A little carbon goes a long way. I would say about a cup. I put the carbon in a ladies stocking, tie it off, and after rinsing real well I place it in a high flow area of the filter.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Use a voltmeter/multimeter to test your tank for stray voltage
Voltage in of itself is not a problem in an aquarium.
When you stirred up the sand bed do you remember smelling something like rotten eggs?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497213
Voltage in of itself is not a problem in an aquarium.
When you stirred up the sand bed do you remember smelling something like rotten eggs?
Depends on how high the voltage is... it can cause major problems, I know. I had a heater explode in my sump and it killed pretty much everything.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497214
Depends on how high the voltage is... it can cause major problems, I know. I had a heater explode in my sump and it killed pretty much everything.
Ever see, birds sitting on a power line they can be in direct contact with 10,000 volts, but they are not electrocuted. It’s not the volts that cause the problem
 
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tyler70

Guest
I only have two volts in the tank but ordered the probe anyway. I didn't smell anything when I stirred up the sand well besides the normal tank smell. How long does it take carbon to take effect? This was over two months ago that I stirred up the sand and changed into this tank. I just dont get why the nitrates won't go down. Ive almost cut my bioload in half with all the fish ive lost. Im really worried about this cloudy eye outbreak though and the only thing I can find to cause it is poor water and the only thing to fix it, in a reef tank at least, is good water.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler70 http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497223
I only have two volts in the tank but ordered the probe anyway. I didn't smell anything when I stirred up the sand well besides the normal tank smell. How long does it take carbon to take effect? This was over two months ago that I stirred up the sand and changed into this tank. I just dont get why the nitrates won't go down. Ive almost cut my bioload in half with all the fish ive lost. Im really worried about this cloudy eye outbreak though and the only thing I can find to cause it is poor water and the only thing to fix it, in a reef tank at least, is good water.
This is my opinion on grounding probes. Voltage is not the problem, current is. Voltages can exist without there being any current. Voltage is the “potential” or force that drives electrons through a conductor. The actual flow of electrons is the “current”. It is current that kills or in many cases causes problems. So what are you doing when you add a grounding probe to your aquarium? You are providing a current path that might not already exist. Any fish between the source and the grounding probe will experience a current flowing through their bodies this may not kill them but it can sure as hell annoy and or cause other problems
FYI
i just copyed this from the internet FISH WITH CLOUDY EYE(S)
One Cloudy Eye

The single cloudy eye can be due to a (A) bacterial infection (highest probability), an (B) injury (next likely cause), a (C) viral infection (least likely), or the onset of (C) another disease (likelihood mixed in there -- somewhere).
Just because you have other fishes that don't have one or more cloudy eyes, DO NOT draw any conclusions from this. Fish are suseptible to bacterial, viral, and disease at different 'levels' of resistance. So, just because the fish has one cloudy eye, and there are more than one fish in the system and the others don't have a cloudy eye(s), doesn't mean it HAS to be an injury.
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(A) If it's a mild infection with just one cloudy eye, you need to do two things:
(1) Improve the fish's diet. Just because the fish is eating a lot of food doesn't mean it's getting the right nutrition. If you don't know what the fish should be eating, now is the time to do the research. Read the sticky in this Forum on Fish Nutrition AND the one on Fish Food Forms. Add vitamin and fat supplements to the the fish's food (see above link).
(2) IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE, you need to look over your system and reduce the number of bacteria in the water. Check your skimmer. Use carbon filters to filter out what the skimmer can't remove. Are these two things being maintained properly? Remove uneaten food, dead things, and detritus from wherever it gathers in your system. Remember to clean out all filters that collect solids, and maintain them properly. Review your water change and maintenance activities. They may not be sufficient or being done properly. Clean out filters that catch solids. Maintain them. Watch water quality.
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(B) If it's an injury, the cloudy eye may not be uniformly cloudy. It may have a scratch/damage on or near the eye somewhere. You may not be able to see the scratch/damage easily. Treat this like the fish has a mild bacterial infection (see above and follow BOTH (1) and (2)). The fish should heal it on its own.
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(C) It maybe the onset of another disease. Many parasites and diseases have the cloudy eye symptom. Treat the fish as if it had a bacterial infection (see above), but be on the lookout for any other disease or parasitic infection signs. If it's viral, there is nothing more to be done other than the same as for a bacterial infection.
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Two Cloudy Eyes

With two cloudy eyes, (B) injury is unlikely. The fish most likely has a (A) bacterial infection. Move the fish to a QT and treat with an antibiotic. Improve the fish's diet (see (1)). I would suggest Nitrofurazone. Just follow directions on the medication. Don't return the fish to the DT until the eyes are clear. Fish that have been ill from another disease or condition often get a bacterial infection as a secondary illness. Treat them as indicated in this section.
If the diet isn't proper, you can choose to move the fish to the QT and inprove its diet AND treat with an antibiotic or just keep the fish in the DT and improve its diet. From my perspective, most hobbyists don't feed their fish properly
, so moving to the QT, looking into improving diet, adding vitamin and fat supplements to its food, and giving an antibiotic treatment is the best approach. In a QT the fish can more easily targeted for feeding AND you only want to use an antibiotic on a fish in quarantine. Use an antibiotic that is for 'topical' (surface) infections. One of the best is Nitrofurazone (found in the product Furan-2). Look for this ingredient in the antibiotic you have available.
In either/both of the above cases (i.e., either one or two cloudy eyes), you still want to look over your system. Follow what is in (2). Returning a healed fish back into a sub-standard environment is not going to keep the fish from getting re-infected.
 
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tyler70

Guest
I am already having problems with lateral line disease on my sailfin for the last year and a half. it just slowly gets worse even when my water was testing perfect and I had carbon in the filter. I completly agree with you that the fish aren't grounded and therefore cannot really get shocked but living in charged water may effect the way the water chemistry is which causes disease. If my voltage was higher I would try and find the culprit but I belive it is just a small amount from all the equipment. I plan yo check the current going through the ground probe and if its significant ten I will do some more investigating. Bu it seems to me that is probably more of a static shock. It builds up then one it finds a path to ground its gone for some time. I had never thought about getting a probe before but with losing so many fish I will try just about anything to save the ones I have. Isn't funny how they become like children? I have spent far more in the past month than if I were to just let them die and start over yet I have never contemplated that.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/393246/help-with-nitrates#post_3497221
Ever see, birds sitting on a power line they can be in direct contact with 10,000 volts, but they are not electrocuted. It’s not the volts that cause the problem
You do know that power lines are coated with an insulator like rubber or some other kind of plastic sheath... But, I like your reasoning.
 
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tyler70

Guest
Yes but where there's a will there's a way, right? I think my biggest problem is the high nitrates in the tank at the moment though. Have you guys used or believes in the reef bio fuel or the microbactor to lower them or am I just throwing money away.
 
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