help!
- Thread starter tiffany
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kelly
Member
Tiffany,
Sorry I did not get back to you last night. Like the other posts said, you nitrate problem with the 55 gallon tank is due to the crushed coral, the bio wheels, and waste products. The DSB will help a little, but not that much (in the 55 gallon tank.. Just to much bio load to make a big difference). Best options outsite of getting a larger tank are more frequent water changes, fewer/less feedings, and put in a refugium with macro-algea like caulerpa in it, these will help remove the nitrates.
How often and how much water do you change in the 55 gallon? Do not move your fish to the 20 gallon, leave them where they are, and set the 20 gallon up for the reef tank.
I would recommend the live rock in the reef tank, the 20 gallon. It is not that live sand does not build up nitrates, it is that in a DSB, you have 2 basic types of bacteria, nitrosomonas and nitrobacter.
As fish and invert give off waste products, it quickly changes to ammonia, the nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite to nitrate. Nitrates are then converted in to a harmless gas. Live rocks also aid in the process of removing nitrates as do macro-algaes.
I would recommend using powerheads in the reef tank to keep the water circulating. If you have any more questions, just keep posting them. Nitrates should be not higher than 60 in you fish tank, and lower would be better. Nitrates over 60 can sometimes be fatal to fishes.
Best of luck.
Sorry I did not get back to you last night. Like the other posts said, you nitrate problem with the 55 gallon tank is due to the crushed coral, the bio wheels, and waste products. The DSB will help a little, but not that much (in the 55 gallon tank.. Just to much bio load to make a big difference). Best options outsite of getting a larger tank are more frequent water changes, fewer/less feedings, and put in a refugium with macro-algea like caulerpa in it, these will help remove the nitrates.
How often and how much water do you change in the 55 gallon? Do not move your fish to the 20 gallon, leave them where they are, and set the 20 gallon up for the reef tank.
I would recommend the live rock in the reef tank, the 20 gallon. It is not that live sand does not build up nitrates, it is that in a DSB, you have 2 basic types of bacteria, nitrosomonas and nitrobacter.
As fish and invert give off waste products, it quickly changes to ammonia, the nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite to nitrate. Nitrates are then converted in to a harmless gas. Live rocks also aid in the process of removing nitrates as do macro-algaes.
I would recommend using powerheads in the reef tank to keep the water circulating. If you have any more questions, just keep posting them. Nitrates should be not higher than 60 in you fish tank, and lower would be better. Nitrates over 60 can sometimes be fatal to fishes.
Best of luck.
tiffany
Member
Thanks for everyones advice. I find it funny that the people who were rude at the beginning rever wrote again and the helpful people keep appoligizing for something they didn't do! I am going to take out the wheel and put back the dsb. How do I know if the dsb is "good" or "working"? Is there anyway to tell? I just find it strange how my fish are doing so well in a tank with nitrates through the roof.
fshhub
Active Member
fish CAN be extremely tolerably of nitrAtes, but inverts can not, just as long as you ammonia and nitrites are ZERO, most fish will be fine, the nitrate need to go sky high(well over 180 i think) our 40 was over over 100 for a while at one time
as far as telling if it is workin, your nitrates will eventually start to come down(slowly) and you will see some bubles in your sand too, as well your dsb will change color, different layers and differnet colors showing the different algaes which are working for you
BUT if it is 4 to 6 inches deep, i can't see any reason why it wouldn't work, except for the fact thaat after a couple of years it should be recharged(simply aadd some a little(maybe a cup or so) ls)
as far as telling if it is workin, your nitrates will eventually start to come down(slowly) and you will see some bubles in your sand too, as well your dsb will change color, different layers and differnet colors showing the different algaes which are working for you
BUT if it is 4 to 6 inches deep, i can't see any reason why it wouldn't work, except for the fact thaat after a couple of years it should be recharged(simply aadd some a little(maybe a cup or so) ls)
flamehawk
Active Member
The DSB will be working soon enough after you install. You'll be able to see "critters" up against the glass in due time. Install it and put some of your c/c in a sheer stocking to allow for some of the "critters" and helpful bacteria to get into the sandbed. I'm assuming of couse that the DSB is staring off with dead sand .
I read all the past posts and don't think that anyone was trying to be rude. Don't take it personal.
As far as the health of your fish...sometimes it is not very obvious when they are suffering. Your nitrate level is extremely high and whether it's now or later the fish will or are suffering. All which has been said will help but the real solution is to get a bigger tank or return fish to the LFS. Sorry if you feel that's brash but it is the harsh reality.
I truly wish you the best of luck.
I read all the past posts and don't think that anyone was trying to be rude. Don't take it personal.
As far as the health of your fish...sometimes it is not very obvious when they are suffering. Your nitrate level is extremely high and whether it's now or later the fish will or are suffering. All which has been said will help but the real solution is to get a bigger tank or return fish to the LFS. Sorry if you feel that's brash but it is the harsh reality.
I truly wish you the best of luck.
kris walker
Active Member
Hi Tiffany, just wanted to add my 0.02 to this conversation. 
I am a newbie, so this may be wrong, and I apologize if it is so. But as I understand, a DSB is excellent for nitrate reduction, but not ammonia/nitrite reduction as implied by Adrian (I say this with all due respect Adrian). The reason is that there is little circulation through a DSB unlike that for an undergravel filter. An undergravel filter works great for ammonia/nitrite reduction because there is high circulation (and therefore its o2-rich), but is useless for nitrate reduction.
So you need some other biofilter for ammonia/nitrite other than DSB:
(1) You can continue to use biowheels, but as mentioned, these may get clogged with detritus and may become nitrate factories if you have no pre-biowheel cartridge. But if you have such a cartridge, this should not be a problem. I assume you do. With that said, make sure you are keeping your cartridges clean, as they are huge nitrate producers if not cleaned every few days.
(2) You can add more LR to your existing stock as suggested by others. This will not only help process ammonia/nitrite, but also nitrate (but prob. not near as much as a DSB).
IMO, I would (1) keep the biowheels because you have a large bioload that needs a large biofilter. Make sure you clean pre-biowheel cartridges every few days. If you want to get rid of biowheels, get more LR first and make sure its live. Then gradually reduce number of biowheels until there are no more. (2) Definitely go back to a DSB as suggested above.
Again, just my newbie 0.02, and sorry its long,
sam
I am a newbie, so this may be wrong, and I apologize if it is so. But as I understand, a DSB is excellent for nitrate reduction, but not ammonia/nitrite reduction as implied by Adrian (I say this with all due respect Adrian). The reason is that there is little circulation through a DSB unlike that for an undergravel filter. An undergravel filter works great for ammonia/nitrite reduction because there is high circulation (and therefore its o2-rich), but is useless for nitrate reduction.
So you need some other biofilter for ammonia/nitrite other than DSB:
(1) You can continue to use biowheels, but as mentioned, these may get clogged with detritus and may become nitrate factories if you have no pre-biowheel cartridge. But if you have such a cartridge, this should not be a problem. I assume you do. With that said, make sure you are keeping your cartridges clean, as they are huge nitrate producers if not cleaned every few days.
(2) You can add more LR to your existing stock as suggested by others. This will not only help process ammonia/nitrite, but also nitrate (but prob. not near as much as a DSB).
IMO, I would (1) keep the biowheels because you have a large bioload that needs a large biofilter. Make sure you clean pre-biowheel cartridges every few days. If you want to get rid of biowheels, get more LR first and make sure its live. Then gradually reduce number of biowheels until there are no more. (2) Definitely go back to a DSB as suggested above.
Again, just my newbie 0.02, and sorry its long,
sam
tiffany
Member
Flame Hawk, telling me to get a bigger tank or get rid of my fish doesn't answer the initial problem I had! Suppesenly you are allowed 2 inches for every gallon of water and I have less than 20 inches and a 55 gallon. Anyway....Surfin Sam, I also want to thank you for your help. I do find it a bit strange that you're the only person that said to keep the bio wheel. Yes I do have cartridges in the tank before the wheel and I replace those at least once a month. With the dsb, the "critters" come form the live rock, correct?
kris walker
Active Member
As I understand it, the critters come from LR, and/or livesand if you get it. Only the first inch of sand will get infested with critters. The sand beneath will become too oxygen poor to hold them.
Re. nitrates, IMO, I would clean the cartridges more often. This might be the source of (or at least contributing to) your high nitrates.
I have heard that biowheels (regardless of pre-cartridge use) are nitrate factories by others who are more experienced than me. But I don't understand the reasoning, and I've used biowheels with cartridges with no problem now for 5 months with absolutely no trace of nitrates. But, FYI, I did remove them recently because I felt they were not needed (I have enough LR), and have had no chem spikes as a result.
Best wishes,
sam
Re. nitrates, IMO, I would clean the cartridges more often. This might be the source of (or at least contributing to) your high nitrates.
I have heard that biowheels (regardless of pre-cartridge use) are nitrate factories by others who are more experienced than me. But I don't understand the reasoning, and I've used biowheels with cartridges with no problem now for 5 months with absolutely no trace of nitrates. But, FYI, I did remove them recently because I felt they were not needed (I have enough LR), and have had no chem spikes as a result.
Best wishes,
sam
kris walker
Active Member
Yup, I kept the cartridges in because every 3 or so days I go in with a turkey baster and blow around the detritus on the bottom, and I like having the cartridges collect this detritus for me when it gets kicked up(rather than vacuuming the substrate).
sam
sam
fshhub
Active Member
tiffany, sorry to say, but that is backwards, the limit on fish in fo tank, should not exceed 1 inch per 5 gallons, and a well set up and mature bio filter(basically enough lr and a dsb) can help you sustain more, SOMETIMES up to 1 inch per 2 gallons, not 2 inch per galon, please do not follow 2 inches per gallon, this would most definitely result in problems for you
HTH
HTH
adrian
Active Member
Didnt even notice this post was still going Heres the scoop on bio media, it lacks low oxygen zones as the media is constantly being exposed to air, the bacteria that breaks down nitrates into free nitrogen lives in areas of little to no O2, and since this step is inhibited by the bio medias activity, eventually nitrates tend to build up, hence "nitrogen factory". This usually takes a while, it usually wont happen in a few months. Bio media dosnt cause trates, it only prevents them from being broken down. With that said, ammonia and nitrites are broken down by bacteria that live in oxygented zones, like Sam said, which is why bio media works so well at breaking down ammonia and nitrites, but not trates, but these same bacteria live on the surface and within the first inch or so of a DLSB and in and on LR, with a skimmer and or an overflow the water will be plenty 02 rich to support this batcteria. Bio media works good with tanks that lack a DLSB, but are not needed when one is present. A DLSB not only provides ample surface area for the colonization of bacteria, but it also creates low O2 areas in which the bacteria that break down nitrates thrive. Not only does bacteria live in these zones, but so do certain worms and other creatures that feed on the bacteria as well as detritus among other things. Ive included a pic of one of several kinds of worm that live at the bottom of my sandbed As for crushed coral, the partice size is just to big, gaps are formed between the individual particles which cause wastes such as uneaten food to become trapped and can lead to a build up of detritus, A UGF prevents this to a point, but at the same time introduces O2 to the deeper layers and inhibits denitrification once again. Mechanical fitration tends to do same to a lesser extent in that it traps wastes which will rot until the floss is cleaned or replaced. As for the 2" per gallon rule thats definitely not true, and IMO theres really no rule as to how many " of fish you can keep per gallon, too many variables like individual species and behavior, among other things. DOnt worry if people seem rude at time, Im sure its not intentional, we just forget sometimes what it was like to be a newbie HTH
Heres the scoop on bio media, it lacks low oxygen zones as the media is constantly being exposed to air, the bacteria that breaks down nitrates into free nitrogen lives in areas of little to no O2, and since this step is inhibited by the bio medias activity, eventually nitrates tend to build up, hence "nitrogen factory". This usually takes a while, it usually wont happen in a few months. Bio media dosnt cause trates, it only prevents them from being broken down. With that said, ammonia and nitrites are broken down by bacteria that live in oxygented zones, like Sam said, which is why bio media works so well at breaking down ammonia and nitrites, but not trates, but these same bacteria live on the surface and within the first inch or so of a DLSB and in and on LR, with a skimmer and or an overflow the water will be plenty 02 rich to support this batcteria. Bio media works good with tanks that lack a DLSB, but are not needed when one is present. A DLSB not only provides ample surface area for the colonization of bacteria, but it also creates low O2 areas in which the bacteria that break down nitrates thrive. Not only does bacteria live in these zones, but so do certain worms and other creatures that feed on the bacteria as well as detritus among other things. Ive included a pic of one of several kinds of worm that live at the bottom of my sandbed As for crushed coral, the partice size is just to big, gaps are formed between the individual particles which cause wastes such as uneaten food to become trapped and can lead to a build up of detritus, A UGF prevents this to a point, but at the same time introduces O2 to the deeper layers and inhibits denitrification once again. Mechanical fitration tends to do same to a lesser extent in that it traps wastes which will rot until the floss is cleaned or replaced. As for the 2" per gallon rule thats definitely not true, and IMO theres really no rule as to how many " of fish you can keep per gallon, too many variables like individual species and behavior, among other things. DOnt worry if people seem rude at time, Im sure its not intentional, we just forget sometimes what it was like to be a newbie HTH
fshhub
Active Member
remove slowly, one at a time, and wait a couple for weeks, as for other alternatives, if you have a good bio filter, that would be enough,
we ahve an emporer 400 which is dismantled, all we do now is run it empty with no media or wheels, just for circulation, and have had no problems, we did keep the filter for a while, because we were skeptical at first, and it did help to clean up at first
we ahve an emporer 400 which is dismantled, all we do now is run it empty with no media or wheels, just for circulation, and have had no problems, we did keep the filter for a while, because we were skeptical at first, and it did help to clean up at first
kris walker
Active Member
Thanks Adrian for clearing that up for me, and for being gentle about it. I guess you (or others you have read/talked with) have had success in managing a good bioload without any LR or human-made biofilteration whatsoever, and just a LDSB. I would have never guessed that there could be enough circulation in the upper part of the DSB to take care of all the ammon/trite processing (and thus the reason I suggested keeping LR and/or biowheels).
I still don't understand why everyone on this board hates biowheels though. Nobody has convinced me that they deserve to be called nitrate factories. Yes, biowheels are not the end-all-be-all of biofilters like a LDSB apparently. They simply process ammon/trites into trates. But that is what any good aerobic biofilter will do (including the LR and upper LDSB). So I don't see why everyone is so much opposed to them. And keep this in mind, I am not the spokesman for biowheels. I have removed mine as well because my bioload can be handled with just LR.
sam
I guess you (or others you have read/talked with) have had success in managing a good bioload without any LR or human-made biofilteration whatsoever, and just a LDSB. I would have never guessed that there could be enough circulation in the upper part of the DSB to take care of all the ammon/trite processing (and thus the reason I suggested keeping LR and/or biowheels).I still don't understand why everyone on this board hates biowheels though. Nobody has convinced me that they deserve to be called nitrate factories. Yes, biowheels are not the end-all-be-all of biofilters like a LDSB apparently. They simply process ammon/trites into trates. But that is what any good aerobic biofilter will do (including the LR and upper LDSB). So I don't see why everyone is so much opposed to them. And keep this in mind, I am not the spokesman for biowheels. I have removed mine as well because my bioload can be handled with just LR.
sam
tiffany
Member
well now I am worried I shouldn't even have bothered with the little reef. It's just I know my 55 will never be a reef, because I can't afford it, being a broke college student, but my 20 gal could be one....ugh this way I figure my 55 would be tropical fish and my 20 will be reef!