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haze

Member
I have a bit of a long winded question, and something i dont understand...I have a 42 hex reef tank. The ph of the water i use as makeup water is in the 7 range,as is all other ro/di water if i am not mistaken. After adding instant ocean the ph is high 7's, so i add some marine buffer. It takes several doses of buffer to get the ph up to about 8.2. All of my other water quality parameters are good, but my alkalinity is very high at about 7meq/l from the recommended 2.5 meq/l. I do not overfeed and have a cleanup crew of hermits and snails. Recently i lost a condylactus-just shrivelled up and a cleaner shrimp. i also have an ich outbreak. recent addition being a piece of mushroom rock. My question is is this high alkalinity a problem and if it is how do i fix it if the makeup water is of low ph? Also do you think the high alkalinity is the cause of my die off and ich? I have not gotten a straight answer from my LFS on this matter, his reply is that high alkalinity is no problem. i am very confused and frustrated as i care very much for the success of this tank and have tried to do everythying right. Tank was started in jan. 03.thank you in advance for anny help you can give me.
 

broomer5

Active Member
Haze
What you are describing is not all that uncommon.
I experienced the exact same thing when I first got my RO/DI unit up and running.
I discussed my resulting low pH of the newly mixed saltwater with a technican at Instant Ocean in Mentor Ohio.
Here's what I learned;
As municipal tapwater enters into the RO/DI unit, it has a certain level of carbonates, bicarbonates, calcium, magnesium and other stuff in it ..... AND CO2 gas, all of which are dissolved in the tapwater.
As this water passses through the multiple stages of the RO/DI, much ( most ) of the carbonates, bicarbonates, calcium, magnesium and other stuff is rejected by the RO membrane.
In other words - these compounds are not "pushed" through the membrane. Some of this stuff get's through - but most is removed by the RO process/membrane.
The CO2 gas on the other hand - much of it moves right on through this membrane. CO2 gas is not a solid .. it's a dissolved gas. The gas molecule is very tiny relative to the other dissolved solids. This RO water still contains much of the original CO2 gas that was in the pretreated tapwater.
It's still in there - we just can't see it.
As this water then passes through the DI - again much of the CO2 gas is not removed.
The result is RO/DI water that can contain a lot of CO2 gas.
So now we have RO/DI water - that has close to neutral pH, very little ions left in it ... but may still contain CO2 gas in solution.
Often the pH of this water can actually be somewhat acidic - dropping down below 7.0 ( if measured with a freshwater pH test kit ). I've tested my freshly made RO/DI water in the 6.8 range before.
As we mix the saltmix with this "FRESHLY MADE" RO/DI water ... we may end up with a batch of saltwater that has a low pH.
Down in the mid to high 7's ....... as opposed to the 8.2/8.3 pH range we'd like to see.
So what do we do about this.
AERATE THE RO/DI WATER BEFORE MIXING IN THE INSTANT OCEAN SALTMIX
Don't use an airstone though - just run the RO/DI water into your plastic holding/mixing container ... and place a heater and strong powerhead in the RO/DI water.
Place the powerhead on the bottom of the RO/DI water container ... pointing up .. so it moves water from the bottom of the container up to the top.
If the surface is sort of bubbling and rippling .. you got it right.
Let this RO/DI water sit overnight like this - and much of the excess CO2 gas will escape the RO/DI water.
The level of CO2 gas will reach an equalibrium with the level in the room. This is a good as you can expect.
Then ....... proceed with mixing in your saltmix.
Then ...... let this new batch of mixed saltwater aerate again using the same powerhead/heater/procedure.
If you try this ... I'll bet you'll find that the newly mixed batch of saltwater will have a higher pH.
Mine went from pH of mid/high 7's before I followed this aerating procedure..... to around 8.2 pH after following it.
Excess CO2 gas that is in the water can and will pull the pH down.
Try it next time and see what happens.
If this does not cure the low pH of your mixed batch - please let us know.
You should not need to add marine buffers to newly mixed batches of Instant Ocean synthetic sea salt.
If you do need to tweek - it's always better to tweek the tankwater - not the new mixed saltwater batch.
Good luck.
 

broomer5

Active Member
Hey Kip !!
I was typing my reply and didn't even see yours.
I'm a slow typist.
Your advise is good - and Haze's situation could easily be an imbalance of alk and calcium as well.
If you're aerating your RO/DI water - you're way ahead of me when I first got me RO/DI. I struggled with this low PH for months before I got some help. Good for you !
It's sometimes hard to predict what is going on with our own stuff ... let alone other's ;)
Aerating water before mixing and after is normally considered a good practice. Took me months to figure out why - LOL ;)
 

haze

Member
Just tested my calcium and it is at 700, which is high and i assume it is high from the marine buffer addition. Tested with SEATEST . Tested my alkalinity, now has come down a bit to 5meq/l, pH is 8.2-maybe just a tad less-hard to judge subtlty of color gradation on seatest.
 

broomer5

Active Member
Haze,
What are all the additives/supplements that you are using ?
Alk ?
Calcium ?
Etc ?
Do you use an RO/DI unit - or are you buying freshwater ?
Kip - sounds like a program ;)
 

haze

Member
The other part of my question... is this responsible for my ich and shrimp and anemone kickin the bucket? my other inhabitants are doing fine except for the ich.
 

haze

Member
supplements:coral vital every day, marine buffer as needed, Its clear and Kick ick since my ich outbreak, feed flake food and prime reef soaked in garlic, mandarin just picks at live rock, never seen him eat what i feed the others, had him for 3 weeks so i assume he's eating. thank you aLL FOR ALL THIS ADVICE!
 
Broomer5 - as I was reading your post on aerating the water, it got me thinking. Bang Guy replied to one of my posts about adding Ca saying I should drip my water into the skimmer intake. In an emergency, couldn't you add the new saltwater mix into the skimmer intake as well? I'd assume this would help remove the CO2 in the water and bring up the PH as well.
Good thought (again in an emergency) or not?
 

haze

Member
copepods I assume you mean? If not enough of them to survive what do I do? The Live rock i have has lots of life on it which the mandarin pecks at. tried feeding some brine shrimp he didnt touch. Least of my problems now anyway.
 

haze

Member
All zero according to the tests i have done. african cichlids were so easy but not nearly as cool...
 

broomer5

Active Member
hookedonreefs
I can't speak for Bang Guy - but I did go back and re-read his comment.
I believe he was referring to dripping the kalkwasser into the intake of your skimmer.
I've read where kalkwasser has a very high pH to begin with, and when a drop of it hits the sump tankwater - the high pH kalkwasser can cause some of the phosphate in the tankwater to precipitate out. The phosphate will form a solid with the calcium. This happens pretty fast - and if this phosphate/calcium reaction takes place in the skimmer's air/water column - I suppose the skimmer will be able to remove some of it before it passes out of the skimmer.
Thus allowing some phoshate export when you empty the skimmate cup.
I suppose you could slowly add newly mixed saltwater into the skimmer's intake in an emergency.
It would be better to aerate it overnight in the mixing container in my opinion - but as you said - in an emergency I can't see a reason not to. It would just take a very long time to drip new saltwater this way.
You'd have to ask Bang for his thoughts :)
 
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