Here's a question you marine geniuses

[jonnywater]

Seriously.
I am debating this matter back and forth. Obviously larger particulate matter is going to get dissolved in LR, LS and via scavenging animals. Mechanical filtration such as bio balls and filter floss only help that a bit by taking some of it out of the water right? So basically you are creating a dumpster somewhere in the water flow system. Which to me (and most other people) doesnt seem right.
Now obviously your animals, LR and LS are doing the same thing as mechanical filtration would do. So then the ammonia gets turned into nitrite and then nitrate regardless of whether you use mechanical filtration or not. However what actually gets rid of nitrate? Is it the speed that matter is removed from the tank water? Meaning that mechanical filtration is a necessity? What good is getting rid of ammonia and nitrite causing matter if you have a reef tank because nitrate is only going to continue to remain? I guess protein skimmers get rid of nitrate. Just seems like a lot of stuff that does not makes sense to me.
I was wondering if there is any sort of self cleaning mechanical filtration that anyone knows about where you dont have to replace the pads once every week to make sure that it is still doing its job

 

[benter]

Nitrate export is the purpose of my refugium. By harvesting the macroalgaes I am exporting nitrates. I'm sure some of the rael marine geniuses can explain this in great detail. But that's pretty much the whole story.

 

[jonnywater]

That I get, how refugiums work. It is basically a smaller aquarium hanging on the back of your bigger aquarium with much longer lighting and much slower water flow. Thing is why should that be needed? There has to be something missing. Not from refugiums, just from filtration in general. I can fully understand proteim skimming also. Just the rest of it I dont. One reason is because if you do not run mechanical filtration on your aquarium, you stand the change of clogging your protein skimmer to my knowledge. That may be wrong though.

 

[trainfever]

Removing nitrates is the whole purpose of doing water changes. You are taking out water withnitrates in it and then replacing it with water that has no nitrates in it. If you dont do water changes, then your nitrates will build up. Using macroalgae to remove nitrates is also another way of doing it, but you must cut back your macro every week or so. Macro algae only holds onto your nitrates. If the macro stays in the tank, so does the nitrates.
Remove some macro and you remove nitrates.

 

[jonnywater]

Water changes do very little to help control nitrates. They make a slight difference, just not huge. By the third day in after a water change, usually your nitrate levels are back to where they were. Dont blame me for that though. Its what I have read from about 300 different places. I am all over the internet tonight searching for new info.

 

[trainfever]

Well I told you how to remove nitrates, if you don't want to believe me, that's on you. But you will soon see that others will agree with me.

 

[jonnywater]

No, I know that others agree with you. I didnt say that I dont. However most of the reading that I am seeing is proving otherwise. Its similar to saying that weekly water changes replace all of the elements that you need in your tank. Which is true to an extent. However you are also dealing with 70 different elements (technically around 120). Some of which can build to near toxic levels. People may have tanks that have been up for 10 years and will only reach those amounts after that amount of time. I am pretty sure that there is not that many test kits on the market. There are different elements that will eventually get WAY up there then, eventually, begin to cause slow but sure harm to different reef creatures.
It just seems that every 5 years new info comes out that contradicts everything that is known. Yet weekly water changes will drop your nitrates. However in about 90% of the cases will not drop them under 5 ppm. Which is still a bit high for ALL reef aquariums. All that I am saying really is that there is a HUGE amount of knowledge on this board. Many of the same methods are used and recommended. One way may not work for all aquariums though. I am just wondering if there is some sort of sure mechanical filtration that will not increase your nitrate levels (or really get them below 5 ppm)? However I do not want to spend 100 dollars a month in upkeep.

 

[jupoc911]

a dsb will remove nitarates. nitrates either need to be removed through anerobic areas (sand), through feeding (algeas), or manual removal (water changes). A Dsb and water changes should keep nitartes around 0. all three of the above will definitly work.

 

[jonnywater]

How deep is deep though? I am reading all over the place about that, not a single site has mentioned a depth. As far as I can tell, it seems that over an inch without a plenum is deep. I definetely dont want to have 6 inches of sand, LOL. I was looking at maybe planting a few mangroves in the back of my aquarium also. The more I read about the chemical make up of mangroves, the more they start to make sense then anything.

 

[jupoc911]

depending on what grain size. 0-1mm sand you will need a depth greather than 3 inches. this is oolitic sand. 1-2mm requires a 4-6 inch sand bed. I just set up a 4 inch oolitic sand bed in my 75. In my 55 i have a 3 1/4 inch bed and my nitrates have been at the highest, 2.

 

[hkdonreefs]

Sugar fine sand should not be deeper than 3 inches. If you have a mix of larger sizes than you can go 6. Lr and ls alone can filter a tank. I have a 20g heavily stocked with no filtration at all besides lr and ls. Protien skimming removes waste from the water so it does not get converted to anything but it also removes plankton. All corals feed by absorbtion so having more nutrients isnt always a bad thing. If you want to keep sps than you want cleaner water. Personaly I like the natural approach and it works for me but there are many ways to go about it. I feed heavily dose dts phyto and kent zoo alternating days and my am. ni. and nitrate are zero. Its important to have animals to stir up the sand and have good flow going over it.

 

[hot883]

Originally Posted by trainfever
Removing nitrates is the whole purpose of doing water changes. You are taking out water withnitrates in it and then replacing it with water that has no nitrates in it. If you dont do water changes, then your nitrates will build up. Using macroalgae to remove nitrates is also another way of doing it, but you must cut back your macro every week or so. Macro algae only holds onto your nitrates. If the macro stays in the tank, so does the nitrates.
Remove some macro and you remove nitrates.
The main purpose of water changes is to REPLACE trace elements consumed or lost.

 

[benter]

If i'm not mistaken..the whole nitrate removal is a chemical reaction type of problem and is not something that can be removed by a filter that I have heard of. I think that nitrites and nitrates are very similar just one of the molecules have been removed or added..And nitrates eventually get turned into nitrogen gas in a deep sand bed and it gets released that way. Is this correct, can anyone else explain it better..

 

[jonnywater]

Yes, but it replaces no where near the total amount needed, atleast from what I have read. Besides the fact that I know people with tanks. Every person that I know does water changes on Friday, Saturday or Sunday (after a day of mixing water of course). If any of them check their water 2-3 days before the change, their calcium is usually below 350. Or was before they started using additives. Check your calc, alk, stron and iodine 48 hours before you do your next water change. Who knows, maybe its the salt.
I have bubbles forming in my sand bed a good deal of the time.

 

[jupoc911]

why wouldnt you want more than a 3 inch sand bed of sugar grain sand? Yes nitrafication can take place at 2.5 inches but if your using a true dsb than 3 inches or more should be used. :notsure:

 

[reefreak29]

ok your taking the fun out of this hobby , but i have a solution for u move next to an ocean and continually pump out of it and let it run through your tank and your water will be perfect all the time

 

[jonnywater]

Part of the fun of this hobby is trying to discover new ways to improve water quality and its parameters for all of the inhabitants of your tank. I think that if people could just set up a tank just to stare at ALL THE PRETTY COLORS!!! that it would be rather boring. To me anyways, i find aquariums extremely interesting. The way the water forms, the amount of elements and structure of it, the way that each and every organism is an individual. I just want to know more about the chemical aspect of it so that I can provide nearly a perfect marine enviroment for my creatures. Anyone that doesnt want their parameters to be perfect, shouldnt be in the hobby. One of the things that attracts people to the marine hobby is the scientific aspect of it.

 

[hkdonreefs]

Carib-seas website tells you about depth of sand relative to grain size. They specialize in substrate so I would listen to what they say.

 

[jupoc911]

i can send you an article about sand beds and nitrate reduction if you would like. 3 inches or more to be safe. it comes from a very good source.

 

[hkdonreefs]

I have read many articles on this subject. Alot of different views. Inlandaquatics specializes in refugiums and aquaculture. They recomend a mix of small and large sizes so does carib-sea. Ill stick with what these guys say. I agree that a dsb should be at least 4 inches. Im setting up a 75 with fuge going 4 inch with half sugar fine and half crushed coral no mechanical filtration all natural. I used to have a 190 with a leopard shark, trigger, lion fish, wrase. I had a wet/dry was getting nitrate build up bad took out the bioballs everything was fine. My ex gave it all away when I moved out wanted to kill her.