Hermit Crab in Cold Saltwater Tank?
- Thread starter rachelrocket
- Start date
rachelrocket
New Member
An update: I caught the chromis, piled all the tropical live rock in a bucket, and scooped out 30 lbs of live sand to take back to the fish store. LFS was not happy to see me, despite me reminding me that I had spent ~$485 with them, and I was planning to keep the aquarium, hood, protein skimmer, and powerheads they'd sold me at some expense.
They refused to have anything to do with the LS. They sell it in bags, and they said they just can't resell sand. (Of course, this was after I carried it all over and they asked me to leave it there for the manager, who comes in late in the day.) They took back the chromis, offering me 30% store credit, but I really got mad when they offered me $3/lb in store credit for the LR.
Again, THEY told me that this was the way to cycle a cold water tank. I repeated this, and they finally agreed to give me a full refund- albeit in store credit. What was I going to do with $150 in store credit? I already had all my gear! I continued pressing my point, and the manager said that it was against the rules, but he would talk to the owner and call me back tomorrow about putting the refund on my credit card. My partner, pessimestically, says that he isn't actually going to call the owner, that I'll have to call HIM back, and when I get him on the phone, he'll say 'no'. We'll see.
Steve, You said that you would cycle the tank with just water and bioballs in the overflow. I don't currently have an overflow; an aquarium friend at the Monterey Bay aquarium said that I would be just fine with a powerhead and a protein skimmer. Do I need to have an overflow to replicate the great results you've gotten on my small 29 gallon tank?
Also, on the sand/gravel on the bottom, thanks for the warning. I would have just gone to the beach and filled my bucket with local gravel. Sounds like that is very much NOT the choice to go with. What did you fill your tank with? Rocks from Home Depot, washed thoroughly? And for the LR, could I get those from the intertidal zone, or do I need to go diving? (Problem is, I just moved up here and don't have dive buddies yet and I'm sure the commercial outfits would have qualms about me going and collecting.
Thanks!!
They refused to have anything to do with the LS. They sell it in bags, and they said they just can't resell sand. (Of course, this was after I carried it all over and they asked me to leave it there for the manager, who comes in late in the day.) They took back the chromis, offering me 30% store credit, but I really got mad when they offered me $3/lb in store credit for the LR.
Again, THEY told me that this was the way to cycle a cold water tank. I repeated this, and they finally agreed to give me a full refund- albeit in store credit. What was I going to do with $150 in store credit? I already had all my gear! I continued pressing my point, and the manager said that it was against the rules, but he would talk to the owner and call me back tomorrow about putting the refund on my credit card. My partner, pessimestically, says that he isn't actually going to call the owner, that I'll have to call HIM back, and when I get him on the phone, he'll say 'no'. We'll see.
Steve, You said that you would cycle the tank with just water and bioballs in the overflow. I don't currently have an overflow; an aquarium friend at the Monterey Bay aquarium said that I would be just fine with a powerhead and a protein skimmer. Do I need to have an overflow to replicate the great results you've gotten on my small 29 gallon tank?
Also, on the sand/gravel on the bottom, thanks for the warning. I would have just gone to the beach and filled my bucket with local gravel. Sounds like that is very much NOT the choice to go with. What did you fill your tank with? Rocks from Home Depot, washed thoroughly? And for the LR, could I get those from the intertidal zone, or do I need to go diving? (Problem is, I just moved up here and don't have dive buddies yet and I'm sure the commercial outfits would have qualms about me going and collecting.
Thanks!!
steveweast
Member
Rachel.....
1) That's a common practice with fish stores. Why don't you keep the store credit ? ....you can always use salt, fish food, or critters that come through the warm trade but are really cold water ....like catalina gobies, margarita snails, waratah anemones, etc.
2) Didn't know that you didn't have an overflow and sump....that complicates things a bit. Basically....bacteria colonizes everything...glass, acrylic, rock sand, piping, everything.....and the more surface area that you have....the more space for bacteria......hence the function of bioballs. In your case, you'll have to just cycle using some sand in the tank. Here's a word of caution for you....please don't take it the wrong way. I've spoken to many people at the MBA, Long Beach Aquarium, Oregon Coast Aquarium, and Seattle Aquarium over the years.....I've never been impressed with the basic aquarium construction and husbandry abilities of those folks. They know their animals....but...not the small aquarium equipment. The reason is that those public Aquariums are all open systems....meaning that they just flow ocean water through their systems. They do not operate closed systems like we do and... as a result.... seem to lack experience in this area. The inland public Aquarium folk like Atlanta or Shedd in Chicago have a much better working knowledge by neccessity. I'm not saying that someone at MBA doesn't know his or her stuff....only to be careful.
3) Sand....You could use a local course sand if you acquire it from a surf zone and wash it really well. I plan to switch my tanks over to that in the future since I found a good spot for it....but, it was in about 20ft of water. Right now, I use a PURE calcium carbonate sand that is somewhat dark in color.
4) Rock.... You could grab some rock from the tidepools.....the only problem is that rock tends to be devoid of life except algae. I collect my rock from below 30 feet where it's too dark for significant algae to grow. Contact the folks on the cold water fish board....there are lots of divers over there...namely Will and Jeff...who could grab you a few rocks. I don't plan on diving again until March....and it will probably be West of Port Angeles. When that time comes, you're welcome to meet us there and join us on the dive or we could bring you a few goodies.
1) That's a common practice with fish stores. Why don't you keep the store credit ? ....you can always use salt, fish food, or critters that come through the warm trade but are really cold water ....like catalina gobies, margarita snails, waratah anemones, etc.
2) Didn't know that you didn't have an overflow and sump....that complicates things a bit. Basically....bacteria colonizes everything...glass, acrylic, rock sand, piping, everything.....and the more surface area that you have....the more space for bacteria......hence the function of bioballs. In your case, you'll have to just cycle using some sand in the tank. Here's a word of caution for you....please don't take it the wrong way. I've spoken to many people at the MBA, Long Beach Aquarium, Oregon Coast Aquarium, and Seattle Aquarium over the years.....I've never been impressed with the basic aquarium construction and husbandry abilities of those folks. They know their animals....but...not the small aquarium equipment. The reason is that those public Aquariums are all open systems....meaning that they just flow ocean water through their systems. They do not operate closed systems like we do and... as a result.... seem to lack experience in this area. The inland public Aquarium folk like Atlanta or Shedd in Chicago have a much better working knowledge by neccessity. I'm not saying that someone at MBA doesn't know his or her stuff....only to be careful.
3) Sand....You could use a local course sand if you acquire it from a surf zone and wash it really well. I plan to switch my tanks over to that in the future since I found a good spot for it....but, it was in about 20ft of water. Right now, I use a PURE calcium carbonate sand that is somewhat dark in color.
4) Rock.... You could grab some rock from the tidepools.....the only problem is that rock tends to be devoid of life except algae. I collect my rock from below 30 feet where it's too dark for significant algae to grow. Contact the folks on the cold water fish board....there are lots of divers over there...namely Will and Jeff...who could grab you a few rocks. I don't plan on diving again until March....and it will probably be West of Port Angeles. When that time comes, you're welcome to meet us there and join us on the dive or we could bring you a few goodies.
rachelrocket
New Member
Steve,
I understand- I'll do my best to take his advice with a grain of salt. He is the "small tank" guy at the aquarium, but the tanks he is responsible for are well over 100 gallons each and, as you suggested, use water straight from the ocean to cycle.
I got some sand as you suggested and am continuing to cycle my empty tank.
I noticed that I still have one inhabitant: a small orange bristle-worm. Should I let him die, or should I bother to feed him? I've heard mixed thins on their utility, and, of course, have read your 6 foot worm saga.
I understand- I'll do my best to take his advice with a grain of salt. He is the "small tank" guy at the aquarium, but the tanks he is responsible for are well over 100 gallons each and, as you suggested, use water straight from the ocean to cycle.
I got some sand as you suggested and am continuing to cycle my empty tank.
I noticed that I still have one inhabitant: a small orange bristle-worm. Should I let him die, or should I bother to feed him? I've heard mixed thins on their utility, and, of course, have read your 6 foot worm saga.
demartini
Active Member
Steve! I finally found you!! help me please!
I am also taking the cold water tank route. I have done some research (mainly reading your information). I want to try to make a smaller tank... I know it's tough, but I'm really devoted and I think a small cold water would be awesome.
1. What is the smallest possible tank I can use?
2. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I'm thinking collect rocks from tide pools in half moon bay? Where should I get the sand? I see that you are going on a dive in march... Is there any way you can pick me up some rock and sand? I would really appreciate it and I'm willing to pay you for it.
3. Where would I go about buying strawberry anemones? or anything else in general...like small sea stars.
4. Do you make your salt water or do you use ocean water... if you make your own water, then what salinity do you keep it at.
thank you so much!
I am also taking the cold water tank route. I have done some research (mainly reading your information). I want to try to make a smaller tank... I know it's tough, but I'm really devoted and I think a small cold water would be awesome.
1. What is the smallest possible tank I can use?
2. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I'm thinking collect rocks from tide pools in half moon bay? Where should I get the sand? I see that you are going on a dive in march... Is there any way you can pick me up some rock and sand? I would really appreciate it and I'm willing to pay you for it.
3. Where would I go about buying strawberry anemones? or anything else in general...like small sea stars.
4. Do you make your salt water or do you use ocean water... if you make your own water, then what salinity do you keep it at.
thank you so much!
steveweast
Member
Originally Posted by DeMartini
Steve! I finally found you!! help me please!
I am also taking the cold water tank route. I have done some research (mainly reading your information). I want to try to make a smaller tank... I know it's tough, but I'm really devoted and I think a small cold water would be awesome.
1. What is the smallest possible tank I can use?
2. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I'm thinking collect rocks from tide pools in half moon bay? Where should I get the sand? I see that you are going on a dive in march... Is there any way you can pick me up some rock and sand? I would really appreciate it and I'm willing to pay you for it.
3. Where would I go about buying strawberry anemones? or anything else in general...like small sea stars.
4. Do you make your salt water or do you use ocean water... if you make your own water, then what salinity do you keep it at.
thank you so much!
1) Hard to say....the more water...the more stable the environment. So, I guess it depends upon how diligent you are.....maybe 30 gals ?
2) There are rules about collection down there that you might want to check out first. I'm not a big fan of tidepool rock....too little life and too much algae. I prefer rock from deeper than 50 ft. But, if that's all you can get....so be it. My permit up here is for personal use only....no commercial use allowed. Besides, the rocks are granite and are not suitable for overnight shipping.
3) There are no vendors as of yet for local cold water critters....you'll have to collect yourself within the local laws.
4) I mix up saltwater. The ocean the world over is in a narrow range around 35ppt. I mix to 34 or 35 ppt.
5) looks like a baby anemone of some sort....I'm not sure of the exact species....but, I'm sure it would be easy to care for.
Steve! I finally found you!! help me please!
I am also taking the cold water tank route. I have done some research (mainly reading your information). I want to try to make a smaller tank... I know it's tough, but I'm really devoted and I think a small cold water would be awesome.
1. What is the smallest possible tank I can use?
2. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I'm thinking collect rocks from tide pools in half moon bay? Where should I get the sand? I see that you are going on a dive in march... Is there any way you can pick me up some rock and sand? I would really appreciate it and I'm willing to pay you for it.
3. Where would I go about buying strawberry anemones? or anything else in general...like small sea stars.
4. Do you make your salt water or do you use ocean water... if you make your own water, then what salinity do you keep it at.
thank you so much!
1) Hard to say....the more water...the more stable the environment. So, I guess it depends upon how diligent you are.....maybe 30 gals ?
2) There are rules about collection down there that you might want to check out first. I'm not a big fan of tidepool rock....too little life and too much algae. I prefer rock from deeper than 50 ft. But, if that's all you can get....so be it. My permit up here is for personal use only....no commercial use allowed. Besides, the rocks are granite and are not suitable for overnight shipping.
3) There are no vendors as of yet for local cold water critters....you'll have to collect yourself within the local laws.
4) I mix up saltwater. The ocean the world over is in a narrow range around 35ppt. I mix to 34 or 35 ppt.
5) looks like a baby anemone of some sort....I'm not sure of the exact species....but, I'm sure it would be easy to care for.
steveweast
Member
Originally Posted by RachelRocket
Steve,
I understand- I'll do my best to take his advice with a grain of salt. He is the "small tank" guy at the aquarium, but the tanks he is responsible for are well over 100 gallons each and, as you suggested, use water straight from the ocean to cycle.
I got some sand as you suggested and am continuing to cycle my empty tank.
I noticed that I still have one inhabitant: a small orange bristle-worm. Should I let him die, or should I bother to feed him? I've heard mixed thins on their utility, and, of course, have read your 6 foot worm saga.
bristle worms are harmless....i wouldn't worry about him. He may or may not adjust to the lower temp.
Steve,
I understand- I'll do my best to take his advice with a grain of salt. He is the "small tank" guy at the aquarium, but the tanks he is responsible for are well over 100 gallons each and, as you suggested, use water straight from the ocean to cycle.
I got some sand as you suggested and am continuing to cycle my empty tank.
I noticed that I still have one inhabitant: a small orange bristle-worm. Should I let him die, or should I bother to feed him? I've heard mixed thins on their utility, and, of course, have read your 6 foot worm saga.
bristle worms are harmless....i wouldn't worry about him. He may or may not adjust to the lower temp.
rachelrocket
New Member
Hi guys,
As you suspected, I haven't seen the bristle worms since adding my chiller. I've been getting steady readings on the tank for nearly a month indicating that the tank has finished cycling.
I spoke to California Fish & Game, who told me what I could collect, and where. I haven't managed to hook up with other cold marine aquarists in Northern California, so I went tidepooling on an extremeley low tide. I wanted to start slowly, so I collected only the following:
1 small lined shore crab (Pachygrapsus crassipes)
1 fingernail/ribbed limpet (Collisella scabra)
1 periwinkle snail
5 brown turban snails (Tegula brunnea)
1 small (quarter in diameter) Aggregating anemone, (Anthopleura elegantissima)
I also collected a half dozen pieces of rock from the high tide zone, and a pound of pebbles for my empty tank (as you might remember, I returned the tropical LR and LS, much to their ire). Steve, you mentioned that I'd be getting more algae than life on the rock from the inter-tidal zone, which is why I collected a few more snails.
I acclimated everything to the temperature (which was the same as that at the beach, from my tests) and subsequently to the water (which at 1.023 was exactly the same as the salinity of the beach water) and that evening, introduced them to the tank.
The snails and limpets attacked my algae happily, and spend their days cruising around the tank. One of the brown turban snails has even decided to begin filtering the pebbles for algae, and is currently plowing along the floor of the aquarium. The anenome appears happy/healthy, and has devoured a fragment of deveined shrimp I fed it (that was fun to watch). The crab, however, has not made an appearance. As soon as I introduced him to the tank, he scuttled under a promising rock, and hasn't moved (from what I've seen) since.
I tried to entice him with a "crab pellet" from the LFS, which he ignored, but has since disappeared, as well as a tiny fragment of shrimp. That may be the cause of the Nitrite problem, which surfaced yesterday (3 days post-livestock introduction).
Yesterday, my tank readings had jumped a bit.
Temp: 61 degrees
Ammonia: 0
Salinity: 1.023
Nitrite: 0.1
Nitrate: 2
I checked to make sure the crab was alive- he was still in the same place, but moved when I removed his rock- and don't see any decomposing shrimp or crab food.
So far, my response has been to exchange 1/5 of the water in the tank (yesterday afternoon). No change in today's tank readings. Any suggestions?
As you suspected, I haven't seen the bristle worms since adding my chiller. I've been getting steady readings on the tank for nearly a month indicating that the tank has finished cycling.
I spoke to California Fish & Game, who told me what I could collect, and where. I haven't managed to hook up with other cold marine aquarists in Northern California, so I went tidepooling on an extremeley low tide. I wanted to start slowly, so I collected only the following:
1 small lined shore crab (Pachygrapsus crassipes)
1 fingernail/ribbed limpet (Collisella scabra)
1 periwinkle snail
5 brown turban snails (Tegula brunnea)
1 small (quarter in diameter) Aggregating anemone, (Anthopleura elegantissima)
I also collected a half dozen pieces of rock from the high tide zone, and a pound of pebbles for my empty tank (as you might remember, I returned the tropical LR and LS, much to their ire). Steve, you mentioned that I'd be getting more algae than life on the rock from the inter-tidal zone, which is why I collected a few more snails.
I acclimated everything to the temperature (which was the same as that at the beach, from my tests) and subsequently to the water (which at 1.023 was exactly the same as the salinity of the beach water) and that evening, introduced them to the tank.
The snails and limpets attacked my algae happily, and spend their days cruising around the tank. One of the brown turban snails has even decided to begin filtering the pebbles for algae, and is currently plowing along the floor of the aquarium. The anenome appears happy/healthy, and has devoured a fragment of deveined shrimp I fed it (that was fun to watch). The crab, however, has not made an appearance. As soon as I introduced him to the tank, he scuttled under a promising rock, and hasn't moved (from what I've seen) since.
I tried to entice him with a "crab pellet" from the LFS, which he ignored, but has since disappeared, as well as a tiny fragment of shrimp. That may be the cause of the Nitrite problem, which surfaced yesterday (3 days post-livestock introduction).
Yesterday, my tank readings had jumped a bit.
Temp: 61 degrees
Ammonia: 0
Salinity: 1.023
Nitrite: 0.1
Nitrate: 2
I checked to make sure the crab was alive- he was still in the same place, but moved when I removed his rock- and don't see any decomposing shrimp or crab food.
So far, my response has been to exchange 1/5 of the water in the tank (yesterday afternoon). No change in today's tank readings. Any suggestions?
steveweast
Member
Rachael, I posted this in the other forum...
Rachael....your nitrite problem is a result of your adding alot of rock relative to your tank size. There will be a certain amount of die-off that will, basically, cause your tank to go through a mini cycle.....my tanks did the same thing. I would suggest that you minimize the feedings, perform a water change every few days, and test frequently. Nitrite (NO2) is very toxic to invertebrates and somewhat toxic to fish. Your tank's biological populations will catch up to your higher bioload....it will just take probably two weeks. Nitrite should be zero.....nitrate slowly accumulates over time and is the end product of nitrification. It doesn't become harmful to sensitive invertebrates until you get over 25ppm....dilution through water changes (especially on a small tank) is your best bet to control nitrate (NO3).
This is the reason that I suggest to people starting up a cold tank to cycle their tank with a heavy dose of ammonia chloride (NH4Cl).....to build up heavy bacteria colonies that can handle the intial rock load. If your skimmer is not pulling out lots of dark brown gunk at this point.....get a better skimmer. A really good skimmer is a cold tanks best friend.
Steve
Rachael....your nitrite problem is a result of your adding alot of rock relative to your tank size. There will be a certain amount of die-off that will, basically, cause your tank to go through a mini cycle.....my tanks did the same thing. I would suggest that you minimize the feedings, perform a water change every few days, and test frequently. Nitrite (NO2) is very toxic to invertebrates and somewhat toxic to fish. Your tank's biological populations will catch up to your higher bioload....it will just take probably two weeks. Nitrite should be zero.....nitrate slowly accumulates over time and is the end product of nitrification. It doesn't become harmful to sensitive invertebrates until you get over 25ppm....dilution through water changes (especially on a small tank) is your best bet to control nitrate (NO3).
This is the reason that I suggest to people starting up a cold tank to cycle their tank with a heavy dose of ammonia chloride (NH4Cl).....to build up heavy bacteria colonies that can handle the intial rock load. If your skimmer is not pulling out lots of dark brown gunk at this point.....get a better skimmer. A really good skimmer is a cold tanks best friend.
Steve
d0 thy d3w
Member
nice cold water system!! i too live in the PNW about 45minutes from the Sound...im hoping when i finally move out of my parents house, that i can move a bit closer to the sound and set up a tank or two as nice as yours!!! my uncle lives in Portludlo <spelling?) i love visiting him cuz he lives literally right on the beach! its always fun to go down to the tidepools and find snails, hermits, stars and sumtimes small eels!
d0 thy d3w
Member
so in all..for your setup not including fish,lr,and sand..how much u think ll that cost u?? looks like easily more than a few grand! u work at boeing or microsoft????
steveweast
Member
There's probably about $2500 into my cold system....it's just two small tanks, one small sump, one return pump, a chiller, two T5 light assemblies, and one skimmer. Most of the livestock and all of the rock are free to me. The cost of a cold system is no more than an average warm reef....and cheaper than an sps reef.
d0 thy d3w
Member
well..ur two small tanks...put my 1 tank to shame by far...but this summer i can finaly get a job..so i can afford to make my tank alot more cooler tha it is!! maybe nearly as nice as yours!
H
huskychasrs
Guest
This an awesome thread...Good luck on your tank Rachael!
rachelrocket
New Member
Hi guys,
Several months and much frustration down the road, I'm finally up and running with my tank. I just wanted to share a couple of pictures for others out there trying to find resources on starting a coldwater tank, and finding it hard going. You can do it!
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And the LR didn't cost a dime. . .of course, my chiller was significantly more expensive!
Several months and much frustration down the road, I'm finally up and running with my tank. I just wanted to share a couple of pictures for others out there trying to find resources on starting a coldwater tank, and finding it hard going. You can do it!
And the LR didn't cost a dime. . .of course, my chiller was significantly more expensive!