Hey Arizona, how bout we talk about the REAL issue here...

theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
This whole "border war" problem is a lot like the "education crisis" in America.
Why is it that all these kids are failing out of school? Most want to blame the teachers, or the principals, or the administration, or the lack of funding, etc, etc. The truth of the matter is that you have to go to the ROOT of the problem, which is the lack of a fundamental family life with a mother and father. That's right, I say BLAME THE PARENTS, because quite honestly it all starts there.
This whole border thing is eerily similar. Everyone wants to blame the laws, or the border patrol, or the cops, or the drug dealers, etc, etc. You know who we really should blame?!?
The FREAKING PEOPLE WHO CONTINUALLY HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
If these big companies stopped hiring illegals, what would be their reason for risking life and limb to cross the border? Oh that's right, they wouldn't have any...
It kills me that most of the right is dead set on tougher border security, when for the most part it's the right (i.e. wealthy) who own the tens of thousands of companies who hire these illegals in the first place.
No jobs, no immigrants. Period.
*This is a pre answer to all the responses I'm expecting*
Q: "But what about all the drug dealers, they aren't here for jobs!"
A: This is the one and ONLY point I will agree with you. Drugs are a HUGE problem coming across the border, and should be dealt with harshly. However, the number of illegals who cross who are directly involved in drug trafficking make up 3.5% of the total number of people crossing (which is up from 2.3% in 2000, which is troubling). Regardless, this relatively small number of individuals could be dealt with much more effectively assuming we didn't have the other 96%+ to worry about.
Q: "Do you have any idea how many illegals work here, and make our country run? If you took them out, this country would fall apart"
A: Yes, I have been to the southwest, and heck even here in Ohio, and I know that there are hundreds of thousands of immigrants who do all kinds of work in this country. I also know that just because they are here doesn't make it right. I also know that 10% of the population is out of work right now. Take a few million immigrants out of the picture and the job market just freed up a whole lot. And yes, I know that these are "crap jobs" that no America wants. Well, I think it's about time we lazy Americans got off our a$$ and did something "hard" again.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270693
The FREAKING PEOPLE WHO CONTINUALLY HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
You are clueless....what percentage of illegals do not have a driver's license and fake social security card?
You say you own a business...what papers are you required to take as proof of legallity to work in this country.
Also, If someone murders your mom. And the cops do not investigate....who is in the wrong?
You are tryiong to place blame for this at one person or entities feet. That is not the case.
 
handbanana

handbanana

Member
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270693
This whole "border war" problem is a lot like the "education crisis" in America.
Why is it that all these kids are failing out of school? Most want to blame the teachers, or the principals, or the administration, or the lack of funding, etc, etc. The truth of the matter is that you have to go to the ROOT of the problem, which is the lack of a fundamental family life with a mother and father. That's right, I say BLAME THE PARENTS, because quite honestly it all starts there.
This whole border thing is eerily similar. Everyone wants to blame the laws, or the border patrol, or the cops, or the drug dealers, etc, etc. You know who we really should blame?!?
The FREAKING PEOPLE WHO CONTINUALLY HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
If these big companies stopped hiring illegals, what would be their reason for risking life and limb to cross the border? Oh that's right, they wouldn't have any...
It kills me that most of the right is dead set on tougher border security, when for the most part it's the right (i.e. wealthy) who own the tens of thousands of companies who hire these illegals in the first place.
No jobs, no immigrants. Period.
*This is a pre answer to all the responses I'm expecting*
Q: "But what about all the drug dealers, they aren't here for jobs!"
A: This is the one and ONLY point I will agree with you. Drugs are a HUGE problem coming across the border, and should be dealt with harshly. However, the number of illegals who cross who are directly involved in drug trafficking make up 3.5% of the total number of people crossing (which is up from 2.3% in 2000, which is troubling). Regardless, this relatively small number of individuals could be dealt with much more effectively assuming we didn't have the other 96%+ to worry about.
Q: "Do you have any idea how many illegals work here, and make our country run? If you took them out, this country would fall apart"
A: Yes, I have been to the southwest, and heck even here in Ohio, and I know that there are hundreds of thousands of immigrants who do all kinds of work in this country. I also know that just because they are here doesn't make it right. I also know that 10% of the population is out of work right now. Take a few million immigrants out of the picture and the job market just freed up a whole lot. And yes, I know that these are "crap jobs" that no America wants. Well, I think it's about time we lazy Americans got off our a$$ and did something "hard" again.
Wow. You should worry about Ohio and leave AZ alone
 
scottnlisa

scottnlisa

Member
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270693
This whole "border war" problem is a lot like the "education crisis" in America.
Why is it that all these kids are failing out of school? Most want to blame the teachers, or the principals, or the administration, or the lack of funding, etc, etc. The truth of the matter is that you have to go to the ROOT of the problem, which is the lack of a fundamental family life with a mother and father. That's right, I say BLAME THE PARENTS, because quite honestly it all starts there.
This whole border thing is eerily similar. Everyone wants to blame the laws, or the border patrol, or the cops, or the drug dealers, etc, etc. You know who we really should blame?!?
The FREAKING PEOPLE WHO CONTINUALLY HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
If these big companies stopped hiring illegals, what would be their reason for risking life and limb to cross the border? Oh that's right, they wouldn't have any...
It kills me that most of the right is dead set on tougher border security, when for the most part it's the right (i.e. wealthy) who own the tens of thousands of companies who hire these illegals in the first place.
No jobs, no immigrants. Period.
*This is a pre answer to all the responses I'm expecting*
Q: "But what about all the drug dealers, they aren't here for jobs!"
A: This is the one and ONLY point I will agree with you. Drugs are a HUGE problem coming across the border, and should be dealt with harshly. However, the number of illegals who cross who are directly involved in drug trafficking make up 3.5% of the total number of people crossing (which is up from 2.3% in 2000, which is troubling). Regardless, this relatively small number of individuals could be dealt with much more effectively assuming we didn't have the other 96%+ to worry about.
Q: "Do you have any idea how many illegals work here, and make our country run? If you took them out, this country would fall apart"
A: Yes, I have been to the southwest, and heck even here in Ohio, and I know that there are hundreds of thousands of immigrants who do all kinds of work in this country. I also know that just because they are here doesn't make it right. I also know that 10% of the population is out of work right now. Take a few million immigrants out of the picture and the job market just freed up a whole lot. And yes, I know that these are "crap jobs" that no America wants. Well, I think it's about time we lazy Americans got off our a$$ and did something "hard" again.
Finally, I agree 100% with this. Also, what jobs are the immigrants getting? Doctors? Lawyers? Nope. They are doing jobs that the American people wouldn't lower our standards to do.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
It is simple to get work visas for the jobs Americans wont do. Our country will run just swell with no illegals here.
It is already illegal to employ illegals. Doesn't stop folks from hiring them.
If you don't want insects in your house you have to 1) remove the attractant: Jobs and public services And 2) find and remove their point of access: Close the border.
I really don't see conservatives opposed going after business who hire illegals. They are just smart enough to realize without cutting off public services and guarding the border it serves no purpose.
 
scottnlisa

scottnlisa

Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3270723
It is simple to get work visas for the jobs Americans wont do. Our country will run just swell with no illegals here.
It is already illegal to employ illegals. Doesn't stop folks from hiring them.
If you don't want insects in your house you have to 1) remove the attractant: Jobs and public services And 2) find and remove their point of access: Close the border.
I really don't see conservatives opposed going after business who hire illegals. They are just smart enough to realize without cutting off public services and guarding the border it serves no purpose.
So who will pick lettuce then? You?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3270723
It is simple to get work visas for the jobs Americans wont do. Our country will run just swell with no illegals here.
It is already illegal to employ illegals. Doesn't stop folks from hiring them.
If you don't want insects in your house you have to 1) remove the attractant: Jobs and public services And 2) find and remove their point of access: Close the border.
I really don't see conservatives opposed going after business who hire illegals. They are just smart enough to realize without cutting off public services and guarding the border it serves no purpose.

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3270727
So who will pick lettuce then? You?
in bold
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
It does start with the businesses that hire illegal immigrants. The law in this country already requires all people who work in this country to prove their eligibility to be legal in this country via documentation. All employers in this country are required to review all people who work for them and verify their eligibility to be in this county AND work in this country.
Those who don't do this are breaking the law by not doing so, and by knowingly hiring illegals. This should be heavily enforced with very stiff legal consequences to employers who break the law. The laws and consequences are in place, the enforcement is not.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3270741
It does start with the businesses that hire illegal immigrants. The law in this country already requires all people who work in this country to prove their eligibility to be legal in this country via documentation. All employers in this country are required to review all people who work for them and verify their eligibility to be in this county AND work in this country.
Those who don't do this are breaking the law by not doing so, and by knowingly hiring illegals. This should be heavily enforced with very stiff legal consequences to employers who break the law. The laws and consequences are in place, the enforcement is not.
It really isn't a difficult problem to solve if the politics were taken out of it.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Here is the dilema. You hire a dude, he's a black guy from some carribian island. He hands you a faked ID, that looks pretty good. But you're suspicious. If you don't hire him, they go after you for discrimination, after all, thick accent, color, can all be indicators of a foreign national. IF you do hire him and he turns out to be an illegal, they go after you for hiring an illegal... Yeah, those dang employeers are the problem...
But wait according to Obama this bill is racist, how dare these employeers ask for proof of citizenship...
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
What it all comes down to is who can come up with a solution that wont affend minorities which amuzes me. Minorities tend to be the ones fighting for the low wage jobs the illegals steal. Thats why I say just pass the damn law and be done with it. I really thing a whole lot more people will be with ya than agin ya.
 
handbanana

handbanana

Member
AZ is a right to work state. Meaning working is a privlege, not a right. You can be fired for any reason the employer feels.
If you don't like the looks of a person or are suspicious of their Character the employer has every right not to hire that person. Its not racisem its looking out for that companys best interests. I dont know about other states but that's a fact here in AZ
 
mrdc

mrdc

Active Member
Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3270727
So who will pick lettuce then? You?
Well maybe what I am about to say only applies to me but this is the way I look at jobs that no one wants. I have had so many horrible jobs coming up through highschool and college. They range from cleaning septic tanks to shucking corn. I did this with the intent of putting gas in my car to putting myself through college along with stafford loans. I had a goal and that was to get a good degree that would get me a good job and then start a family which is what I have accomplished. THere have been a couple of times (including now) where job security is low and my wife asks what would I do if I lost my job. Well she can't believe some of the jobs I have done in the past and if I lost my current job, I am in a position that I could take some time to look for another position in the same field I am already in. If the money went low, I would take any job I could possibly find to just stay somewhat employed until I could find something better. If I had to shovel ---- all day, I would. I never see a job below me when it comes to my family.
Ok let me get off that soapbox for a minute to let me state what I see going on. Americans are all about having the good life and some are willing to work for it and some want it handed to them. Some have also had an easy life and really haven't ever had to do the jobs that you don't respect others are doing for us to have the opportunity to go for the good life. Well certain poor like the Mexicans want to make some money so they will take the jobs that us Americans that should be doing some work should take.
I just get mad at Americans that won't take jobs with the attitude of "I ain't doing that ----"! The head of a legal was the driver for the ceo putting himself through college and eventually law school. If you really want something in this country, you can do it no matter if you have to shovel pig crap to get you started.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Illegals are here because they can obtain work here and acquire a better life, not because Americans won't take low pays. Somehow the USA managed to run businesses and become the most productive nation in the world--pre-illegal immigration problem.
There are certain businesses, lets just face it, that could care less about illegal immigrants, or the issue, or the detriment to our own country. They want to make money and slave-wage pay is a means to do it. There are American's right now that worry about being able to feed their families, pay their bills, or keep a roof over their heads. In other words, unemployment is high. Yet, we somehow are able to employee millions of illegals.
Something wrong with that picture, right?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
The only work Americans wont take for the most part is the stoop farm labor jobs. I remember back in the 80's there was a big raid on a farm and they put out the word that a good picker could make up to a 100 bucks in a day. So all these people showed up to make the big bucks and I think one made it past noon. But since then they changed the laws where farmers can easily get visas for migrant workers to do the jobs.
In Montana and other northern states I've been in the maids and bus boys are mostly white. They have no issues doing that kind of work. I already posted the link about the slaughter house jobs Americans lined up to take and that was back in the good ol days before Reid and Pelosi when unemployment was less than 5 percent. Right now is the perfect time to get something done with the high unemployment rate.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3270864
Illegals are here because they can obtain work here and acquire a better life, not because Americans won't take low pays. Somehow the USA managed to run businesses and become the most productive nation in the world--pre-illegal immigration problem.
There are certain businesses, lets just face it, that could care less about illegal immigrants, or the issue, or the detriment to our own country. They want to make money and slave-wage pay is a means to do it. There are American's right now that worry about being able to feed their families, pay their bills, or keep a roof over their heads. In other words, unemployment is high. Yet, we somehow are able to employee millions of illegals.
Something wrong with that picture, right?
That's because this country is an 'enabler' to its citizens. Why go dig a ditch for $4.00/hr when you can make $10/hr on unemployment insurance or welfare, and sit on your rear and do nothing? Yes, there are thousands of people out there like mrdc that will do anything to provide for their family. But there's also the one's that are content with living on the minimal free government handouts they get from Uncle Sam. I would guess that number is greater than the 21 million or so illegals that come to this country, taking any job they can get to make money to send home. Mexican plants on the border pay an average of $8/DAY for work performed by their Mexican employees. So why not risk crossing the border when you have the potential of making four times or more than that here.
 
theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3270697
You are clueless....what percentage of illegals do not have a driver's license and fake social security card?
You say you own a business...what papers are you required to take as proof of legallity to work in this country.
Also, If someone murders your mom. And the cops do not investigate....who is in the wrong?
You are tryiong to place blame for this at one person or entities feet. That is not the case.
I'm not trying to blame one person, I'm trying to blame an entire group of CEO's and Fortune 500 company owners who willingly and knowing hire tens of thousands of illegal immigrants because it makes them and their shareholders more wealthy.
This is one of the downfalls of capitalism. You do whatever it takes to make more money, even if it's not in the best interest of the greater good.
All I'm saying is that I find it somewhat hypocritical that the conservatives and republicans are the ones who are backing and arguing for the validity and need for the bill, yet these are the same political backers and funders who take the money they made from hiring illegal immigrants in the first place to fund the politicians who support the bill.
I just ask that if you make hundreds of millions of dollars on the backs of illegals by day, don't go asking for their removal by night. Makes you look kind of ridiculous.
And yes, I do own a business. And since I have been open, I have had several Mexican applicants come in to ask for work. I chose not to hire any of them, because everytime I asked for papers, they magically never came back. Which means they were hoping I was one of those business owners that would say "Sure, i'll hire you for $8 an hour cash, wink wink".
Unfortunately for them I'm not. But you can bet the farm all they did was move on to the next place, or the place after that, until they got a "yes". And do you know how I know they all eventually got a "yes"? Because they are still here. Which means they are getting paid somehow.
So you do the math...
 
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