Hey Arizona, how bout we talk about the REAL issue here...

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270980
I'm not trying to blame one person, I'm trying to blame an entire group of CEO's and Fortune 500 company owners who willingly and knowing hire tens of thousands of illegal immigrants because it makes them and their shareholders more wealthy.
This is one of the downfalls of capitalism. You do whatever it takes to make more money, even if it's not in the best interest of the greater good.
All I'm saying is that I find it somewhat hypocritical that the conservatives and republicans are the ones who are backing and arguing for the validity and need for the bill, yet these are the same political backers and funders who take the money they made from hiring illegal immigrants in the first place to fund the politicians who support the bill.
I just ask that if you make hundreds of millions of dollars on the backs of illegals by day, don't go asking for their removal by night. Makes you look kind of ridiculous.
And yes, I do own a business. And since I have been open, I have had several Mexican applicants come in to ask for work. I chose not to hire any of them, because everytime I asked for papers, they magically never came back. Which means they were hoping I was one of those business owners that would say "Sure, i'll hire you for $8 an hour cash, wink wink".
Unfortunately for them I'm not. But you can bet the farm all they did was move on to the next place, or the place after that, until they got a "yes". And do you know how I know they all eventually got a "yes"? Because they are still here. Which means they are getting paid somehow.
So you do the math...
If there was this wide spread hiring of illegals be fortune 500 companies and evil CEO's why aren't there more major busts? They can't get away with paying cash like small outfits can. The workplace raids are mostly on small companies which are the ones who hire the most illegals. They nailed swift a few years ago but for every Swift how many roofing companies and landscape outfits are paying cash to them.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3270932
That's because this country is an 'enabler' to its citizens. Why go dig a ditch for $4.00/hr when you can make $10/hr on unemployment insurance or welfare, and sit on your rear and do nothing?
If that is the way you feel, how in the world do you vote democrat?

 

[kjr_trig]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270980
I'm not trying to blame one person, I'm trying to blame an entire group of CEO's and Fortune 500 company owners who willingly and knowing hire tens of thousands of illegal immigrants because it makes them and their shareholders more wealthy.
This is one of the downfalls of capitalism. You do whatever it takes to make more money, even if it's not in the best interest of the greater good.
Wow, I completely disagree with this, and will give an example. I'm in the golf industry, as is a neighbor or mine at a different facility. The course I'm at is "big business", owned by a company worth close to 100 million that ownes many other developments, ever employee hired here is racked over the the coals, drug tested, required to show proof of whom they are. I.E., every person working here is legal (pretty much all of our maint staff is hispanic) or have world class people doing their i.d.'s.
My neighbor works at a privately owned, very small golf course. Very much the opposite, if they need a new maint. guy, they just get him. I think this is the case with a lot of small landscaping companies, concrete, stuff like that. Where it is labor intensive, I see the people picking the fields, I'm sure that is among the worst. It's small bussinesses more than big doing this, no question about it.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/3271057
Wow, I completely disagree with this, and will give an example. I'm in the golf industry, as is a neighbor or mine at a different facility. The course I'm at is "big business", owned by a company worth close to 100 million that ownes many other developments, ever employee hired here is racked over the the coals, drug tested, required to show proof of whom they are. I.E., every person working here is legal (pretty much all of our maint staff is hispanic) or have world class people doing their i.d.'s.
My neighbor works at a privately owned, very small golf course. Very much the opposite, if they need a new maint. guy, they just get him. I think this is the case with a lot of small landscaping companies, concrete, stuff like that. Where it is labor intensive, I see the people picking the fields, I'm sure that is among the worst. It's small bussinesses more than big doing this, no question about it.
Well I'm glad to hear that your company has the fortitude to stand up and actually do the right thing. That's not all that common. And when I say big business knowingly hires illegals, it's one of those gray area things. Like a previous poster had mentioned, getting a fake ID or social security card isn't exactly tough these days. And when fake documents are presented, it's easy for the business to say "well, what do you want me to do? I did my part".
The thing is business owners (both big and small) need to be a lot more vigilant. I have to imagine there is some way in this country that we could dig a little deeper and verify a legal, be it with a finger print, or some other technology. Heck, my POS system allows my employees to sign in with their thumb print. You don't think INS could do something similar? If you are who your papers say you are, then everything should match up.
Maybe that's unrealistic, but I have to believe there is more the businesses can do than to just turn a blind eye...
And while I'm thinking about it... How do these places get away with paying less than minimum wages for their "legal" employees? I always wondered that...

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3270980
I'm trying to blame an entire group of CEO's and Fortune 500 company owners who willingly and knowing hire tens of thousands of illegal immigrants because it makes them and their shareholders more wealthy.
They get hired by the small business owners. You know, like you and I. Show me this large group of fortune 500 companies that knowingly hire hundreds of illegals. Links, stories, anything.
where do you even get your ideas?
And as I stated before, if an illegal has forged documents and a valid driver's license, can you tell the difference? How hard is it to make a SS card? anyone with a printer/scanner can do this. Then you won't here from SS for atleast 2 years if the number is fake.
Also show me a story, link, anything stating a slew of republicans and politicians hired illegals and made their fortune from them.
You seriously have some prejudicial thoughts regarding conservatives. And we are are called prejudice and racist......amazing.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3271061
Well I'm glad to hear that your company has the fortitude to stand up and actually do the right thing. That's not all that common. And when I say big business knowingly hires illegals, it's one of those gray area things. Like a previous poster had mentioned, getting a fake ID or social security card isn't exactly tough these days. And when fake documents are presented, it's easy for the business to say "well, what do you want me to do? I did my part".
The thing is business owners (both big and small) need to be a lot more vigilant. I have to imagine there is some way in this country that we could dig a little deeper and verify a legal, be it with a finger print, or some other technology. Heck, my POS system allows my employees to sign in with their thumb print. You don't think INS could do something similar? If you are who your papers say you are, then everything should match up.
Maybe that's unrealistic, but I have to believe there is more the businesses can do than to just turn a blind eye...
And while I'm thinking about it... How do these places get away with paying less than minimum wages for their "legal" employees? I always wondered that...
So is the problem with the businesses hiring them? Or the government for not instituting such safeguards. You are saying it the fault of business...yet speak of programs that can only be instituted on a national level by the government....make up your mind.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3271065
So is the problem with the businesses hiring them? Or the government for not instituting such safeguards. You are saying it the fault of business...yet speak of programs that can only be instituted on a national level by the government....make up your mind.
I'm saying we need to do whatever it takes whether that be by the business themselves or the goverenment...

 

[reefraff]

If someone walks in and hands you an ID that says Mary Wilson, gives you social security information for Mary Wilson and it turns out it isn't Mary Wilson it takes a long time before the Social Security admin informs you and like Darth mentioned by law once you are notified of it you have to give the person 6 months to correct their information. The stupid system is the main problem.
We have the same problem here that led to 9-11, agencies not allowed to share information. If IRS sees something odd, like 20 people using the same tax id number they should be able, strike that, Required to forward the information to ICE. If social security receives a payment on the account from someone in their death database they should be required to forward that information to ICE. Whether it's a crooked employer or not they know right where to go pick up the illegal and that should be the first step in their investigation anyway.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3271061
. Heck, my POS system allows my employees to sign in with their thumb print. You don't think INS could do something similar? If you are who your papers say you are, then everything should match up.
INS has nothing to do with this. It all goes through social security...which does track the numbers and the names...problem is the business doesn't find out they have hired an illegal until 2 years later minimum. Then even at that point once informed, the questionable employee is given 6 months to produce a new number. The company is not allowed to fire them.after the new number is produced it can take another year to hear back anything.
I worked for a metal finishing company that employeed about 100 people. I ran the plant and got to see this in action first hand. We had about 10 employees of latin decent. All related to each in various forms. One got hired, then when we were hiring again and needed more help they had their family come in and apply. This was during the tail end of the clinton presidency. Employees were hard to come by...we paid a solid wage for no college education. starting was either 10 or 15 an hour pending what position you were applying for. More than double the minimum at the time.
we were contacted...told the employees we needed a new number. at the 6 month mark...they all gave us one. we could not fire them and had to wait. They performed well...so no performance firing was warranted. We Know they are illegal...but the law tied our hands....so I ask, how is this the fault of the business?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/3271067
I'm saying we need to do whatever it takes whether that be by the business themselves or the goverenment...
No, you placed all the blame at the feet of business...and stated we should go after them first....

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3270719
Finally, I agree 100% with this. Also, what jobs are the immigrants getting? Doctors? Lawyers? Nope. They are doing jobs that the American people wouldn't lower our standards to do.
Let's see, the jobs I've "lowered" myself to do:
Lawn mowing
Apartment maintainence
Sewage plant operations
truck farm worker harvesting melons in the fields in August.
McDonald's
orderly ( another form of sewage maintainence)
I was never too proud to work these jobs. I had a goal, I reached the goal through good old fasioned hard work, self improvement, and study.
All on the way to earning my MD.
If we are not "lowering" ourselves to do what I call "launching pad" jobs, then we have become too weak. Why are we afraid to work?

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3272138
Let's see, the jobs I've "lowered" myself to do:
Lawn mowing
Apartment maintainence
Sewage plant operations
truck farm worker harvesting melons in the fields in August.
McDonald's
orderly ( another form of sewage maintainence)
I was never too proud to work these jobs. I had a goal, I reached the goal through good old fasioned hard work, self improvement, and study.
All on the way to earning my MD.
If we are not "lowering" ourselves to do what I call "launching pad" jobs, then we have become too weak. Why are we afraid to work?
I don't think the problem is that people are afraid or don't want to work, they just want to do it for a liveable wage. Minimum wage is a whopping $7.25/hr. If a person works 40 hours at that rate, that's $290. After taxes, you're looking at around $200. How do you live on $800/month? Then you get the illegals that'll walk in and do the same job for $3 - $4 per hour. A neighbor had a couple oak trees contract oak wilt. Devastating disease for oak trees. The HOA told the guy he had to 'treat' the disease by digging this 5' deep trench around the perimeter of these trees. The local comapnies that specialize in this procedure charge $25,000 - $30,000 to do it. He went downtown to the local corner where day laborers hang out looking for jobs. He grabbed 10 of them, put them in the back of the truck, gave them shovels and a backhoe, and had them get to work. Three days later, they completed the work for $300 per person. $3,000 instead of $30,000 to do the exact same job. Would you do that kind of work for $100/day?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3270719
Finally, I agree 100% with this. Also, what jobs are the immigrants getting? Doctors? Lawyers? Nope. They are doing jobs that the American people wouldn't lower our standards to do.
I love it when liberals mess up and allow their true bigot to show.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3272176
I don't think the problem is that people are afraid or don't want to work, they just want to do it for a liveable wage. Minimum wage is a whopping $7.25/hr. If a person works 40 hours at that rate, that's $290. After taxes, you're looking at around $200. How do you live on $800/month? Then you get the illegals that'll walk in and do the same job for $3 - $4 per hour. A neighbor had a couple oak trees contract oak wilt. Devastating disease for oak trees. The HOA told the guy he had to 'treat' the disease by digging this 5' deep trench around the perimeter of these trees. The local comapnies that specialize in this procedure charge $25,000 - $30,000 to do it. He went downtown to the local corner where day laborers hang out looking for jobs. He grabbed 10 of them, put them in the back of the truck, gave them shovels and a backhoe, and had them get to work. Three days later, they completed the work for $300 per person. $3,000 instead of $30,000 to do the exact same job. Would you do that kind of work for $100/day?
Staight up cash? Hell yeah I would have. Heck I've done a lot worse, Well actually that analogy might not work because I am half Mexican.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3272176
I don't think the problem is that people are afraid or don't want to work, they just want to do it for a liveable wage. Minimum wage is a whopping $7.25/hr. If a person works 40 hours at that rate, that's $290. After taxes, you're looking at around $200. How do you live on $800/month? Then you get the illegals that'll walk in and do the same job for $3 - $4 per hour. A neighbor had a couple oak trees contract oak wilt. Devastating disease for oak trees. The HOA told the guy he had to 'treat' the disease by digging this 5' deep trench around the perimeter of these trees. The local comapnies that specialize in this procedure charge $25,000 - $30,000 to do it. He went downtown to the local corner where day laborers hang out looking for jobs. He grabbed 10 of them, put them in the back of the truck, gave them shovels and a backhoe, and had them get to work. Three days later, they completed the work for $300 per person. $3,000 instead of $30,000 to do the exact same job. Would you do that kind of work for $100/day?
Been there done that. I was paid $15.50/ hour as a resident physician. That was based on a 40 hour work week when my average hours were more like 60-80 hours a week. I had a few 120 hour weeks in there depending on the call schedule. So.... to answer your question, I've saved lives, cleaned sewers, flipped burgers, mowed lawns for $100/day or less.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3272225
Been there done that. I was paid $15.50/ hour as a resident physician. That was based on a 40 hour work week when my average hours were more like 60-80 hours a week. I had a few 120 hour weeks in there depending on the call schedule. So.... to answer your question, I've saved lives, cleaned sewers, flipped burgers, mowed lawns for $100/day or less.
You can't compare what you got paid during your residency to what a day laborer makes on a daily basis. You making that $100/day or less now? Don't think so. I used to shingle roofs in my youth in Houston during the summer. Ask stdreb what summer's in Houston are like in the shade, much less on top of a roof. But like you, I got a college education and made something for myself to where I now have financial stability. Those opportunities aren't available to every person living in this country. You have people that can't even graduate high school, much less make it through college. It's not completely their fault, they just simply don't have the 'smarts'. These people could get vocational training to better their lives, but even those jobs are getting hard to come by. Minimum wage earners would jump at the chance of making $15.50/hr these days. How many companies do you know in this country that offer those type of wages as a starting hourly wage?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3272302
You can't compare what you got paid during your residency to what a day laborer makes on a daily basis. You making that $100/day or less now? Don't think so. I used to shingle roofs in my youth in Houston during the summer. Ask stdreb what summer's in Houston are like in the shade, much less on top of a roof. But like you, I got a college education and made something for myself to where I now have financial stability. Those opportunities aren't available to every person living in this country. You have people that can't even graduate high school, much less make it through college. It's not completely their fault, they just simply don't have the 'smarts'. These people could get vocational training to better their lives, but even those jobs are getting hard to come by. Minimum wage earners would jump at the chance of making $15.50/hr these days. How many companies do you know in this country that offer those type of wages as a starting hourly wage?
If you're not smart enough to finish high school and to a lesser extent college, you're a couple donuts short of a box. Our education system's requirements is a joke.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3272302
You can't compare what you got paid during your residency to what a day laborer makes on a daily basis. You making that $100/day or less now? Don't think so. I used to shingle roofs in my youth in Houston during the summer. Ask stdreb what summer's in Houston are like in the shade, much less on top of a roof. But like you, I got a college education and made something for myself to where I now have financial stability. Those opportunities aren't available to every person living in this country. You have people that can't even graduate high school, much less make it through college. It's not completely their fault, they just simply don't have the 'smarts'. These people could get vocational training to better their lives, but even those jobs are getting hard to come by. Minimum wage earners would jump at the chance of making $15.50/hr these days. How many companies do you know in this country that offer those type of wages as a starting hourly wage?
Who works for minimun wages? Kids out of school or someone working at a burger joint as a second job. Even a high school drop out that takes a job sweeping floors will move up as they gain experience and learn new job skills. Those pushing living wage laws don't have a clue about economics in the real world

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3272302
You can't compare what you got paid during your residency to what a day laborer makes on a daily basis. You making that $100/day or less now? Don't think so. I used to shingle roofs in my youth in Houston during the summer. Ask stdreb what summer's in Houston are like in the shade, much less on top of a roof. But like you, I got a college education and made something for myself to where I now have financial stability. Those opportunities aren't available to every person living in this country. You have people that can't even graduate high school, much less make it through college. It's not completely their fault, they just simply don't have the 'smarts'. These people could get vocational training to better their lives, but even those jobs are getting hard to come by. Minimum wage earners would jump at the chance of making $15.50/hr these days. How many companies do you know in this country that offer those type of wages as a starting hourly wage?
Any moron that can't finish high school/GED deserves to be stuck making minimum wage. seriously. I will not feel sorry for someone like that just because they were lazy. There you go coddling people again.
In Minneapolis, starting wage in the metal finishing industry was 11.00 an hour with no experience right out the box. Only requirement was you could breath, lift 25 lbs. and have a GED/Diploma. After 5 years this individual would be at 17-21 dollars an hour depending on performance and self motivation to learn.
This is the field I went into back in 1994. These wages were back then. I quit the industry around 2002....but I am sure they have maintained. I have no college degree..........

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3272330
Any moron that can't finish high school/GED deserves to be stuck making minimum wage. seriously. I will not feel sorry for someone like that just because they were lazy. There you go coddling people again.
In Minneapolis, starting wage in the metal finishing industry was 11.00 an hour with no experience right out the box. Only requirement was you could breath, lift 25 lbs. and have a GED/Diploma. After 5 years this individual would be at 17-21 dollars an hour depending on performance and self motivation to learn.
This is the field I went into back in 1994. These wages were back then. I quit the industry around 2002....but I am sure they have maintained. I have no college degree..........
Not so much Darth, I am a certified welder with years of steel fab experience and have looked around since relocating and due to all the lay-offs and plant closures in the area, people with this kind of experience are basically having to give those skills away because of the bad job situation here and employers are taking advantage of the surplus of skilled workers. Welcome to the brave new world where you can work hard to get what was a great job skill and if your lucky you can start a dollar above minimum wage. It's not just the morons who are stuck making low wages these days. I guess all the really smart people work for Wall St. and the too big to fail banking system and they "deserve" every penny they have made.
Comrade Fishtaco
Fishtaco