High phospates, dieing, and IK 3 part question

[55reef55]

what could cause high phophorus in a reef tank?
It goes down then goes back up. I dont use a protein skimmer, i have a eco filter thing, basicly a mud filter with the green plant crap in it. I have a few coraals. brain some type of zena, star polups, and a flower pot that is dying and i dont know why.
So my questions are this. What causes high phospates?
the second is, why would by flower pot be dieing? also i have had many corals that do good then slowy die off. also iv had many crabs die, like hermet crabs. But then some live. I got like 25 from SWF.com and i think half of them died. could it be just that there were eaten or somthing by a bigger crab or is somthing very wrong with my tank. Also this morning my powder blue tang passed on, it had IK my mom didnt have time to feed with garlic for the past few days b/c of grandfathers funeral so i think IK got him.
And lastly what is the best way to CURE IK just not make it go away for a bit but make it go away forever? I know there are treat ments but i have coral and some of them kill coral so is garlic the best thing?

 

[ophelia]

Okay, corals die because they're not being provided with the environment that they need. I'm not sure where you purchased your corals, but they shouldn't have sold them to you without asking you questions about what kind of setup you have. It doesn't sound to me like you have a setup appropriate to keeping corals. I'm not trying to discourage you, but you're going to have to make a decision. You really only have two options. The first is to buy the equipment that is necessary for keeping the coral alive and commit yourself to putting in the time to take care of it. Keeping coral is a LOT harder than keeping fish, and keeping marine fish is a LOT harder than keeping freshwater fish. Your second option, which may be the wisest thing for you to do right now, is to bag up the coral and take it back to wherever you bought it. To buy all the equipment, realistically, you're looking at hundreds and hundreds of dollars. So maybe right now you don't want to do that. Assuming you do want to try to do this the right way, here goes:
1. You absolutely need a protein skimmer. This is likely to be adding to your phosphate problems. Having any detectable phosphate is very bad for corals. You need to do a water change and possibly add some Kalkwasser. You also need liquid calcium and a test kit for that. Expect to spend fifty dollars for a smaller skimmer.
2. What kind of lighting system do you have? If you have regular flourescent bulbs that they sell at most pet stores, your corals are starving to death. They need very high levels of light for the zooxanthellae in their tissues to make food. They require specialized lighting systems that are very expensive, usually hundreds of dollars.
3. You need a different filter. You want a wet-dry filter ideally with a biowheel to achieve three types of water filtration: mechanical, chemical, and biological. Go to the fish store and tell them you need a filter appropriate for a marine reef tank. This will run you a minimum of fifty dollars.
None of the items I just listed are optional. You MUST have all of them or every piece of coral you buy will be doomed.
I have never had anything in my tank come down with Ich, so I'm not the best person to tell you how to treat it. I do know that most people say it's best to set up a separate "hospital" tank (complete with a filter, heater, etc.) for the fish and treat them with copper. I also know that it is tricky to treat them with copper because it's almost as poisonous to the fish as it is to the Ich. You need copper and a test kit, you need to leave the fish in the hospital tank for a long time, and all of this you need to talk to your fish dealer about. Of course, if you took the coral and other invertebrates back to the store and decided you were just going to keep fish right now you could treat the main tank with copper...
To help you more I need to know:
How large is your tank? How long has it been running? Do you have a quarantine tank? What are you feeding your fish? What additives are you putting in the water? How often are you testing? What is the temp? Specific gravity? Levels of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite? What is the pH, alkalinity, and calcium content of the water?
Corals are gorgeous, delicate, complicated animals and should only be kept by those who can really give 110% of their attention to maintaining their needs. Many reefs throughout the world are in danger. You should read up on any and all species you are interested in buying.
I'm very sorry to hear that your grandfather died and I hope you are able to get the problems straightened out.

 

[ophelia]

Okay, corals die because they're not being provided with the environment that they need. I'm not sure where you purchased your corals, but they shouldn't have sold them to you without asking you questions about what kind of setup you have. It doesn't sound to me like you have a setup appropriate to keeping corals. I'm not trying to discourage you, but you're going to have to make a decision. You really only have two options. The first is to buy the equipment that is necessary for keeping the coral alive and commit yourself to putting in the time to take care of it. Keeping coral is a LOT harder than keeping fish, and keeping marine fish is a LOT harder than keeping freshwater fish. Your second option, which may be the wisest thing for you to do right now, is to bag up the coral and take it back to wherever you bought it. To buy all the equipment, realistically, you're looking at hundreds and hundreds of dollars. So maybe right now you don't want to do that. Assuming you do want to try to do this the right way, here goes:
1. You absolutely need a protein skimmer. This is likely to be adding to your phosphate problems. Having any detectable phosphate is very bad for corals. You need to do a water change and possibly add some Kalkwasser. You also need liquid calcium and a test kit for that. Expect to spend fifty dollars for a smaller skimmer.
2. What kind of lighting system do you have? If you have regular flourescent bulbs that they sell at most pet stores, your corals are starving to death. They need very high levels of light for the zooxanthellae in their tissues to make food. They require specialized lighting systems that are very expensive, usually hundreds of dollars.
3. You need a different filter. You want a wet-dry filter ideally with a biowheel to achieve three types of water filtration: mechanical, chemical, and biological. Go to the fish store and tell them you need a filter appropriate for a marine reef tank. This will run you a minimum of fifty dollars.
None of the items I just listed are optional. You MUST have all of them or every piece of coral you buy will be doomed.
I have never had anything in my tank come down with Ich, so I'm not the best person to tell you how to treat it. I do know that most people say it's best to set up a separate "hospital" tank (complete with a filter, heater, etc.) for the fish and treat them with copper. I also know that it is tricky to treat them with copper because it's almost as poisonous to the fish as it is to the Ich. You need copper and a test kit, you need to leave the fish in the hospital tank for a long time, and all of this you need to talk to your fish dealer about. Of course, if you took the coral and other invertebrates back to the store and decided you were just going to keep fish right now you could treat the main tank with copper...
To help you more I need to know:
How large is your tank? How long has it been running? Do you have a quarantine tank? What are you feeding your fish? What additives are you putting in the water? How often are you testing? What is the temp? Specific gravity? Levels of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite? What is the pH, alkalinity, and calcium content of the water?
Corals are gorgeous, delicate, complicated animals and should only be kept by those who can really give 110% of their attention to maintaining their needs. Many reefs throughout the world are in danger. You should read up on any and all species you are interested in buying.
I'm very sorry to hear that your grandfather died and I hope you are able to get the problems straightened out.

 

[55reef55]

First off i forgot to tell you im not a newbie at this. second i went to my lfs to buy ALL of my stuff. Ok here is what i got.
55gal tanks
Power Compaq lighting and a blue light bulb addition to the powercompaq. the power compaq was like $170 bucks if i remeber right.
Iv had this tank for about a year now. Done one water change.
And you say i need a new filter, im not trying to be mean and all but YOUR WRONG there. Its a eco sytem fileter. Like a sup filter you know. Has byo-balls in the first chamber then goes to mud and CAULERPA, then the 3rd chamber is the pump to put water back into tank. here are a few pics of the tank, was a while ago.

So phospates are bad for corals huh?
oh one last thing.. my LFS owner will not sell me anything that wont live in my tank. Also i have the EXACT same setup as he does he has a 55gal reef for a display tank and i have the exact same things as he does like filter and lighting.
Ok thats my specs so what you guys think?

 

[ophelia]

ONE water change?

 

[david s]

hey is the biowheel a must i am workin toward corals slowly while i learn got a sump took out bioballs and lr no biowheel yet lol ???

 

[ren]

Well about the flowerpot - they are very hard too keep to begin with. Survivability rate on em is <75% I believe Thats just to survive.
About your phosphates - check levels at 1 particular time - they will change from the light being on. Use RO water or go to your LFS and get a phosphate sponge to remove them. Kent makes on that I've used its granular so I placed it into a fishnet type of stocking and dropped into the sump.
About ICK - tangs are prone to ick and especially powder tangs! You really need to setup another small tank for quarentining and place any new fish in it for 30 days. Ick is a parasite and its lifecycle lasts appx 30 days. Use this against it within your reef. It must have a host fish to survive - if no fish are in the reef tank for at least 30 days then no ICK. Also now if you quarentine all new fish for 30 days - no ICK. I almost lost my purple tang to ick but learned alot from here battling it.
HTH

 

[55reef55]

Thanks, i do use RO water and have done the phophsate spung white ball stuff and it works but it keeps coming back not real high but is high.
Also about the small tank for the fish that have or quarintie how big does it have to be like 15 gal or 20? and a few rocks? Also i know they are suseptible real bad Tangs that is. I have a blue hippo tang as well and it has ick but goes away then comes back i guess i will have to set up a small tank for him. Damn the money i spend =)
Oh well its well worth it. Can phophates cause any damge to corals and fish like if its a little above noramal?

 

[birdy]

Just a few thoughts. An ecoysytem filter from what I have heard is one of the better ways to go. And you do not need a protien skimmer with an ecosytem filter, and to say you HAVE to have a wet/dry sytem with bio wheels is not correct, it may be what works for you Ophelia, but it is not what is considered the best way to go .
You did not say how much lighting you have in wattage. As far as the hermit crabs dying do you have enough algae for them to eat? I put some dried seaweed in my tanks if there is not enough food for them, they can starve if there isn't any food. I know high phosphates can cause problems for corals but I don't think they effect fish. phosphates also contribute to problem algae. Test your RO water for phosphates then test your makeup salt water for phosphates to find out where it is coming from if both of those come out negative, it could be coming from something you are putting in your tank, food, additives something like that.

 

[reeferx]

High phosphates-
Test your water like Birdy suggested.
If you can rule out water, look at your feeding habits. You might need to cut back. Overfeeding can raise your phosphates.
Flower Pot Coral-
Lighting and water conditions appear to be critical to this coral. One source said it had to be feed daily as well.
Check this out:
<a href="http://www.cautiouscoral.com/salt/coral/hard/default.asp?SpeciesID=107" target="_blank">http://www.cautiouscoral.com/salt/coral/hard/default.asp?SpeciesID=107</a>
<a href="http://www.***********.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=466" target="_blank">http://www.***********.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=466</a>
Ecosystem:
I know the marketing says you don't need a skimmer. Personally I don't buy it unless you have a helluva lot of caulerpa, then maybe. Even then, a skimmer will do more good than bad. Protein skimmers will reduce the organic/nutrient levels in your tank.
Protein skimmers add oxygen!
Without a skimmer and not much caulerpa, oxygen levels could be low in your tank.
Low oxygen + high phosphates = a good environment for cyano.
hth

 

[55reef55]

Thanks to all who have helped and I think im going to get a skimmer... and that might help the flower pot out.
I found the box for my powercompaq light. its says 110watts but i dont know if thats for both the lights or just one. I htink both and then i have a long blue light in the front i think you can see it in the pic. Do i need more light? and if so how would you suggest i do that? Keep in mind i have no hood on my tank. Should i get one and load it with light or somthing just tell me what you think.

 

[reeferx]

Iv had this tank for about a year now. Done one water change.
<hr></blockquote>
Holy crap. I missed that the first time. I hope that is a typo. Dude! You gotta do more water changes. Not massive water changes at once, just more of them.
Commonly people do around 25% a month, or small ones every couple weeks or even once a week.
That will help with your levels.
And, that is not a lot of light for corals. I would double it. Or stick to low light corals.

 

[jakob4001]

you said you hae no hood; does that mean the top to your tank is open or did you mean that you do not have a canopy?
variable source of phosphates could be the food you use/amount you feed...if you use flakes/pellets some have higher concentrates of phosphates in them that may end up back into your system if uneaten /when released as waste by tank inhabitants...
if they were blue legged crabs, they might have simply killed off the competition...
flowerpots can be hard to keep unless you have good water quality,light, & very healthy specimen to start w/...
some believe you can NEVER have enough lighting as far as reef/coral tank are concerned...building your own canopy & installing some kind of retro kit in combo w/ your PC would probably be another good idea (make sure to install fan unit in canopy too

 

[55reef55]

Well thanks alot guys.. i think ill have to talk my mom into getting more light.. b/c i dont have the money i try and use low light corals but i guess i bought one that was not. Oh well im still learning and more water changes are coming again thanks for all the help. Will post follow up on about the talk with my mother about getting more light and stuff. thanks again and well thanks

 

[trailer trash]

I dont know what the toxictiy level of phoshate is.
It can be introduced from your tap water, some carbon products MAY leach carbon and the normal decay of food.
The problem with phoshate is not toxictiy to fish and corals but the algae blooms it encourages. Have any numbers(ppm) or is this the only thing you can "measure" that seems out of whack?
It is TOO easy to blame ailments on some parameter than came be quantified with hobby test kits....ie nitrate, phoshate, ph....etc
Your flowerpot(gonipora) was probably "doomed" the day it was harvested so dont blame yourself.
STRESS is a leading cause of ich. There is anecdotal evidence than feeding garlic(kolic) soaked food helps.
As too miracle mud.
I have not been too impressed with the tanks Ive seen run on mircle mud. I think this system is not for a beginner and best left to aquarist that have a little more experience.