High Phosphate levels - I tried everything!

[smarls]

OK, I have been reading threads on this site for a few months now, and I would like to say...great info., it has been a great help to me.
I have a problem that I cannot seem to get rid off, even after trying everything I have seen suggested in other threads here. So here is the deal (sorry for the length, but I hope the more info I give, the better):
I "inherited" a tank from an old roomate, which was pretty much a mess. After reading several books on the subject, I decided that I would try and make it nicer for the animals, and try a reef tank...(OMG - is that expensive!)
Anyway, here is the current status - the tank is 55 gallons, with a ton of live rock, four power heads (moving about 800 g/hr), 48" PC lights at about 240watts, and a big hang on back Red Sea skimmer. Animals - snowflake moray, tang, four green chromis, and a clean up crew. The water levels are: ph - 8.5, kh - 10, Nitrate - about 0, Nitrite - about 0, calcium - 450, Phosphate - Above 2.0!!! I also dose with B-Ionic, and have carbon in the ouflow of the skimmer.
My roomate used tap water for the water changes, but to get the water ready for corals, I have been using DI water for about a month, including an initial 50% change to try and get the phosphate down (and have been changing about 20% every week since then). I have also been using a phosex sponge thing to try and get the phosphate down...but NOTHING is working...it remains above 2.0?
I do not want to add any corals until the water is correct. I am keeping my photo period down to about four hours a day so that I do not have a huge algae bloom...but I do not know what to do, and would love to hear any suggestions.
I do not think I am overfeeding...I feed a mix of formula one brine, and angel food (with garlic) twice a day, but the portions are small and everything is gone in about 30-60 seconds. I feed the moray about 2-3 times a week, various snacks (shrimp, scallops etc.), but it is always gone in the morning. There is no detrius build up on the sand or in the rocks. Everything else is great...I have little things popping out of the rock (feather dusters and little anemone looking things), I have amphipods running around at night...but I cannnot control this phosphate!
Maybe the rock has stored phosphate somehow? or the sand? Maybe i am over feeding? Please help me!!!!!!
Any thoughts??

 

[overanalyzer]

I would cut down on feeding twice a day to once a day - plus cut down on the garlic - which will contribute to algea growth .... I only do garlic once a week .... more of a preventive measure then anything else!

 

[smarls]

Thanks for the feedback. The DI water I use has zero phosphates in it...so I do not think that is the culprit.
I will cut back on the feeding to once a day...but could that really be the cause of such high phosphate levels? if it were the cause, would you not expect to see stuff laying around the tank?
ps - thanks for the garlic tip...I wasn't sure how to use it properly!

 

[smarls]

Kipass,
yeah i had the same thought on the test kit, so I bought a second one about a week ago...ubfiortuntely now I get told TWICE that my phosphates are through the roof...
Good thought though.

 

[nm reef]

Same results from different test kits...sort of rules out the "faulty test kit" option. Major sources of phosphates would be food and water....either could cause elevated levels. If the top-off and/or water change water is testing zero then I'd seriously consider feeding less or changing the food. I think some flake type foods and maybe algae based foods can contribute to phosphates(especially if over used).Just a note of interest...I keep a 55 gal reef and a 58 gal fish only...both are normally fed every other day...sometimes not for 3-4 days....every now and then I'll feast 'em and feed two days in a row. I also use a water source with much lower phosphates than you are showing...I use Kents Phosphate sponge to keep my levels nearly non-detectable. Once in a while I'll show a slight indication of phosphates...but not much.
In your situation I'd guess less feeding/continued water changes/phosphate sponge/and maybe a little luck to help reduce your phosphates.

 

[broomer5]

Hey smarls
Good advise given for sure - especially regarding the overfeeding.
We almost always feed tanks more than necessary - it's pretty common - we like to think we are giving the fish and inverts everything they need. Often times - we over do it without even realizing. I know I used to feed too much.
One other thought - you mentioned you run carbon in the discharge of your skimmer. What brand of activated carbon do you use ?
Have you tested it for phosphate release ?
Just toss some in a glass of new saltwater and let it soak.
Test the glass of water for phosphates.
Although I've never experienced this, I've heard that some brands of carbon have been known to release phosphates.
Just a thought

 

[reef fool]

Once you find the source of the PO4, I would highly recommend ROWA Phos as a phosphate eliminator. It is one of the few products that you can run 24/7 without risk of leaching back when exausted.
I used it to eliminate my PO4 which was due to overfeeding. My refugium takes care of it now.
Old bulbs can also contribute to algae and PO4.

 

[elan]

another thought..
how often do you change your phosphate sponge? i am not familiar with the one you are using, but i heard that with the phosguard (the one i use) only works for about 3 weeks, then after that, it may release some of the phosphate its built up back into the tank...
hope you get your tank under control...
good luck

 

[smarls]

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has respeonded for all the help. While I know my tank is not yet perfect, it would not even be close to where it is now if it weren't for the advice on this forum.
As for the phosphate...I am not sure what type of carbon I am using, but I removed it about two weeks ago when I was trying to eliminate possible sources of the phosphate. When I replace it, I will be sure do use a non-phosphate carbon, and I will test it as suggested by Broomer.
I will cut back on the feeding. I hate the thought of them going hungry...however I am sure I am just overconcerned. Once every other day from now on. And conitinue the weekly water changes until I see a difference.
Also, great advice on the Phosphate sponges...I am ditching the Phos Ex today, and will try another brand. I have been replacing the sponge weekly, as I was concerned about leeching of the phosphate back into the tank too.
As jboothiv suggests, perhaps it is in someway related to the b-ionic (which is currently the only thing i dose with). If I lay off that, does anyone have any suggestions as to an alternative method for alkalinity / calcium / supplements? Also, if I am dosing with b-ionic, are there any additional things I should be dosing with? I read, that if you are performing regular water changes, that it is unnecessary to add additional supplements, as the supplements will enter the system through the water changes? Any thoughts on this?

 

[leigh]

if you're doing weekly 20% water changes with a quality salt mix you should be fine on trace elements. i wouldn't supplement with anything personally. (I normally only add calcium and I do 5% water changes weekly-ish).

 

[broomer5]

Out of curiosity .... what are your pH, alkalinity and especially your calcium levels in this tank ?

 

[smarls]

Thanks, Leigh.
Broomer, here are the basic water levels (although, due to the larger water changes I have been doing, the calcium has been dropping a little, and I have been dosing to keep it up)
ph - 8.5
kh - 10
calcium - 450
NItrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
phosphate 2.0

 

[zafirablanca]

I believe that dripping kalkwasser as an additive/ with topoff water will help precipitate phosphorus out of the water in a way that your skimmer could remove it. Check out this article about phosphorus:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2002/chem.htm
Good Luck,
-Christine

 

[smarls]

jboothiv, zafirablanca,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have never used Kalkwasser before, but have used the b-ionic...which it was my understanding replaces the need for Kalk. With that said, it sounds like a great suggestion, and I will try it.
One thing though, any suggestions on brand and/or how to use it properly / dosing etc? Is it just to be used in the top off water, or should it be used as a straight additive as well?
Thanks agin for the help.

 

[eight2178]

smarls, thank you for this post...i have been having the exact same problem you described in your post, but have had little luck in getting replies...i too dose with b-ionic and use sea lab28...my po4's are high, ive been having a huge problem with hair algae...i have already once pulled all the LR out of my tank and brushed it clean, to no avail, it's back again...i use ro water, which tests 0 for po4's, so i dont think that is the culprit....the only other thing i can go off of is what reef fool said, that old bulbs may 'help' the algae grow....i havent changed my MH bulb in a few months....hopefully that'l help

 

[hairtrigger]

Plum was telling my about this stuff once called Salifert Phosphate Remover. Apparently it works really well, look at his tank. But it removes phosphates through your skimmer even more than it does regularly.

 

[reef fool]

Originally posted by jboothiv
Another thought, you might want to lay off the B-ionic and see if that helps. Or change to another calcium source, like kalkwasser.
I am a little confused
Are you saying that the B-Ionic is causing the phosphates or is it just hindering the removal of them? Or is it that Kalkwasser helps in the removal?
I dose 70ml of B-Ionic daily and have 0 phosphates. Although I have had 0 PO4 since I have had the 125 setup.
I am not clear on the reason for the suggestion of stopping the B-Ionic (not arguing, just wondering)

 

[goldrush]

Aside from eliminating the various causes of Phosphates,I have found the best method of controlling them is a refugium Consider it.