How do conquer the Ammonia Battle!

[timsedwards]

Hi Guys,
You may notice my thread on my yellow tang and the possible finrot, but that has led me to another line of enquiry. My Ammonia is not 0 but it is not high/dangerous, and liveable in just I would like it zero! I do a 10% water change every 2 weeks adding biological cycle and I have a skimmer.
Is there anything more i can do?
Tim.

 

[timsedwards]

Right ok, lol, blunt but to the point!
My tank is 260litres (roughly 50gallons) and is 4" curved. It is 9 months or so old, it has one biological filter (******** blue spheres) and a Fluval 404 mechanical (with mediums), an undergravel filter with powerhead, and a Prizm Skimmer.I use 2 Marine glo lights. I do a waterchange every 2 weeks, 10% with adding biological cycle. I add Calcium and Corel-Accel every other day. I feed them on Mysis or Marine-Mix every night. I have 1 Yellow Tang, 2 Perculiar Clowns and a Royal Grammar. The Tang was added
14 days ago and the Royal Grammar today. I have 3 leathers, 1 hand coral, 1 sea apple, 1 gonipora. The light is kept on 5 hours a day.
Hope you can help because now I am worried!

 

[timsedwards]

I am just retesting my tank for ammonia and will have results in 20 mins or so!

 

[mlm]

Why do you add the biological cycle everytime you add new water?

 

[timsedwards]

Yes the lights are in the process of being replaced, all my christmas money comes in at end of january! Im a student so money is a tad tight!
I have one medium piece of living rock, i have other rocks like Tuffa and Lava rock. I feed them perhaps a 1cm by 1cm piece of frozen food once a day, i thought that might be too little?
To be honest I add biological cycle because the guy in the fish shop said too as it replaces core elements?
Just had the results from my retest, somewhere between 0.1-0.3mg/l, how is that?

 

[buzz]

I hate to say it, but it seems you are looking for someone to tell you that a small amount of ammonia isn't bad. It is. It should be zero. Anything above that is bad, and is harmful.
That has all ready been mentioned. It needs to be 0.
Find the source of your ammonia. Did anything die in the tank?
Have you ever cleaned the bioballs? I have not used them, but I have seen it mentioned that this is needed from time to time - please don't take that as fact from me. I am merely repeating what I have read previously on this board.
Do you change your filter media often? Also, you say you have an undergravel filter. What kind of substrate do you have?

 

[buzz]

Thanks for clarifying Sammy. That's why I said that the way I did. I stand corrected. I have not used bio-balls. I use straight Berlin method with a skimmer. No mechanical filter.
I am still curious about the substrate though.

 

[timsedwards]

The substrate is just normal marine gravel. Im not looking for someone to tell me it is ok, im jsut dissapointed and a little anxious! I was always told by shopkeepers over here that it is ok?
Stop adding the cycle? Are you guys sure? I was always told it was imperitive to add?
Yes a Regal Tang died in my tank about a week ago, natural causes I might add, and obviously removed from the tank immediately.
Hope you guys can continue to help!

 

[buzz]

Once your tank is established, you really don't need to continue adding bacteria. It will propagate on it's own.
In regards to Sammy's comment before about the UGF, how are you using it?
Is this a coarse gravel, and not a finer sand as a substrate? If so, when cleaning, do you vacuum it? I am just wondering if it is possible that something is being stirred, or is gathering in the substrate creating higher ammonia levels.

 

[timsedwards]

Yes the substrate is coarse gravel and I try to clean it with the gravel cleaner when changing water, and yes there is quite a bit of dirt down there sometimes. COUld this be it? WOuld it be wise to change to a fine sand?
The UGF is jsut being pumped from the vacuum under the gravel then through the powerhead.
Ill kill the biological cycle then from now on!

 

[timsedwards]

Well its nearly midnight here in UK so im off to bed!
If you could let me know hat I need to do in regards to substrate/water changes/UGF I would be really grateful!
Thanks for all your help

 

[broncofish]

Somebody told me europe was way ahead of the us in reef keeping technologies? I know Spain was the last time I was ther (2001) there was not a bad LFS anywhere to be found in seville, what's going on in the UK. I would recommend doing a searches all over this board about ugf's(not to many use them) deep sand beds, and cc. Buy some newer books, and read read read. Then form your own educated opinion. Now that I said that here is my opinion go with a Deep Sand Bed(DSB).

 

[buzz]

I would think that the gravel could be the culprit. Every time you vacuum it, you are stirring the substrate, which could cause ammonia levels to increase. Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong (again in this string...heh heh).
I would personally use a deep sand bed (have one myself) with a finer aragonite sand, and not use the undergravel filter. But if you opt for that, be careful in removing, or discontinuing the UGF. I have not had any experience in switching substrates, so get some advice on that first.

 

[ophiura]

IMO, you can clean biomedia if you must, but never with tap water. The chlorine will kill off the nice bacteria. So the most you ever want to do (and only if it is necessary because you see accumulated debris) is to gently rinse the material with old tank water (or freshly made water, but why waste it?).

 

[dive1]

I would like to hear some thought on the Sea Apple. I was sold one when I first got started and was told to get it .....out of there. I understand they can kill the whole tank if they go south or get distrubed...

 

[timsedwards]

Hi Guys,
Much information to digest there, thanks a lot!
OK, it seems sense to change my substrate and kill the undergravel filter? What you have said does make sense, would people agree with me If i did that? If so, how the heck do i go about changing that?!?!?!
Also the Sea Apple, yes I also read they can do that if they die, but this guy has lived through a lot worse
Hmmm I think Marine things are great in the UK, its the one shop who I have now changed from anyway
If people could give me any idea on how to change substrate I would really appreciate itm but I think Ill start a new thread for that one!
Thanks for all your help!

 

[buzz]

Since your gravel is now part of your filter, and is home to a lot of needed bacteria, I would get a few mesh bags, fill them with gravel from the bed and leave them in the tank until the sand is established.
Adding sand...tricky one, because if you have higher ammonia readings with only vacuuming (if that is the cause in the end), they may spike even higher in removing it completely. Do you by any chance have a quarantine tank set up that you can put your fish in during this change in the event a spike is caused?
Something to consider.
After that, I'd say make the change and watch your levels. You may want to get some live sand to seed any "dead" sand you add. It will benefit the tank.

 

[timsedwards]

OK, so mesh bags? Just leave them in the tank somewhere right? Maybe even inside the internal biological filter? I wont do it until you say so if that is wrong dont worry there is time to stop me!
I dont have a quarantine tank im afraid no, i guess I just have to go for it and hope for the best. Doing it nowish as have bought some coral sand. My ammonia readings arent high high, jsut existent which is too much (0.1-0.3).
Wish me luck and Ill check what you say about the mesh!
Tim.

 

[gatorcsm]

Why would/does stirring up the gravel cause ammonia spikes?
Or are you suggesting that if you vacuum up to much of that bacteria/grunge/detritis when it is stirred, that it will remove too much of the bio filter?
Thanks

 

[chercik]

I would tell everyone to get rid of their sea apple/sea cucumber. They are not meant to be in with fish because as soon as they become stressed they release their intestines and poison the entire tank - I lost 6 fish this was and the pet store guy told me it would be ok. Everything I read about them says to not risk it. And I never will again - they call them "Time bombs"
Just my two cents!