how long will ick stay in a tank?

[ifirefight]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
What's "cooper"? Just kidding. Actually, I'd like to know where you get the idea that only hypo and copper kill ich? Did everyone vote? Was there some meeting I missed? Have you tested this hypothesis yourself with a study group and a control group containing thousands of species and hundreds of different treatment methods? Honestly, I get tired of the pronouncements some people make on this forum. All most of them are doing is repeating something they've heard someone else say; I doubt many of them have actual first hand experience. I've treated ich with products like Kick Ich and Copper Safe, and I wouldn't be surprised if the products mentioned in the article contain something that is effective against ich. And don't discount the article because you think it's generic. It's written for the general public, not scientists, so of course it's dumbed-down a little. Regardless of the language used, it's still valid information. And no offense, but until you make a living studying and treating fish diseases instead of fighting fires, I'll trust their information more than yours.
Please dont insult my intelligince by generalizing that I am a "stupid firefighter" EVERY article I have read..contridicts that article.As far as to answer your question...no I have not tested this with a control group containing thousands of species and hundreds of different treatment methods...(Nor have YOU). I am refering to mostly common knowledge and also some very knowledgeable people on this site in regaurds to treating ICH. By the amount of posts you have posted...you should know there are only 2 ways to treat ICH.

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Treating FW ich is alot easier than treating SW ich because of the fish themselves. FW fish are often captive breed. If they are wild caught, they come from much smaller water masses and are more accustom to fluctuations. In all fairness, you cannot discredit a website based on their ".com" after all, this is saltwaterfish.com
Yeah, but would you rather take in info from a .gov website or a .com website. Obviously if you're getting infro from a .gov site you know they must have done some research.. Forums are different, here at least you have knowledgeable people on this forum and you could have many people come together to find out if this works or not or what's the best thing to do, etc, but there are .com websites where all these people are putting out articles and they will more than likely contradict each other

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by sfoister
So then if what you say is true, all of these products that claim to fight ich are completely useless. How could that be? How could a company put out a product that is completely uneffective?
What do you mean? People put useless products on the shelf all of the time. That being said, these products will help "fight" ich, they will not actually KILL ich though. Please read the FAQ I pointed out. There is a whole list of products on there. There are actual posts from members who have used these products.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
Yeah, but would you rather take in info from a .gov website or a .com website. Obviously if you're getting infro from a .gov site you know they must have done some research.. Forums are different, here at least you have knowledgeable people on this forum and you could have many people come together to find out if this works or not or what's the best thing to do, etc, but there are .com websites where all these people are putting out articles and they will more than likely contradict each other
True. That is why it is up to us while we are researching to hear/read apposing sides to the argument and find which is more credible. A single source of information is never enough.

 

[ifirefight]

Thank you Sepulation for that information...

 

[ifirefight]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Come over to disease and treatment and read the Common Treatments FAQ.
There are only two proven methods to kill ich, they are copper and hyposalinity
See... :joy:

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Come over to disease and treatment and read the Common Treatments FAQ.
There are only two proven methods to kill ich, they are copper and hyposalinity. Many fish, including scaleless fish, are very sensitive to copper. Hyposalinity is the preferred treatment. Leaving a system fallow, or fishless, for 6 weeks ensures that all parasites have died from lack of host. Raising the temperature will speed up ich's life cycle. Unfortuately, it is much more harmfull to the fish. The temp would have to be raised to 86 to have any effect on the parasites. That is too much of an increase for salt fish to be comfortable.
I've read all that, Sep. My point is this: How do you know that those are the only two proven methods? Is there scientific data contained in the forum to back this up? Did an extremely knowledgeable and respected doctor write the article? Instead of just blindly accepting that position, has anyone actually tried other methods and proven that they do or don't work? I mean, if we don't ocassionally question the accepted practice, how are we ever going to learn anything or broaden our beliefs? I have used other treatments successfully. I've done a lot of things that people said don't work. Basically, I'm just saying that just because something is on this forum doesn't always make it a proven, indisputable fact. People should look deeper than having someone tell them "The only things that work are hypo and copper." How do they know? What are they basing this on? Should I trust them? Just having a fish tank in their living room doesn't always make them an expert.

 

[ifirefight]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
Just having a fish tank in their living room doesn't always make them an expert.
Very well put rbaldino.... BUT...from my understanding..only 2 ways to treat it. I applaude you for "pushing the envelope" and trying to get more info on the subject....I support new "ideas" 100 %

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by ifirefight
See... :joy:
Yes, I've seen it. Please tell me, who proved this? And what makes their opinion more valid than someone else's? Basically, can you please provide their credentials. Are they doctors? Or just someone who had a lot of time to sit in front of the computer? Better yet, can you please provide me with all the data you've collected on the subject? Your research, your findings, the article you had published in a scientific journal... Just because it's on an Internet forum doesn't make it the gospel.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
I've read all that, Sep. My point is this: How do you know that those are the only two proven methods? Is there scientific data contained in the forum to back this up? Did an extremely knowledgeable and respected doctor write the article? Instead of just blindly accepting that position, has anyone actually tried other methods and proven that they do or don't work? I mean, if we don't ocassionally question the accepted practice, how are we ever going to learn anything or broaden our beliefs? I have used other treatments successfully. I've done a lot of things that people said don't work. Basically, I'm just saying that just because something is on this forum doesn't always make it a proven, indisputable fact. People should look deeper than having someone tell them "The only things that work are hypo and copper." How do they know? What are they basing this on? Should I trust them? Just having a fish tank in their living room doesn't always make them an expert.
Beth wrote that article. She was the first moderater ever assigned to SWF over 6 years ago. I have helped out in D&T for almost a year. I have seen so many people try this and that medcation, only to lose their fish and come back to finally do hyposalinity. In Beth's time on this board, I can only imagine how many times she has had this happen. If you question where she got all of her information from, by all means, start a post in D&T and just ask her. We are not the only two. Ask a general post over there about the findings of research and experience. I am not trying to sound like our way is the law, by any means. There are many experienced hobbiests on here that would be happy to tell you what they know about ich.

 

[ifirefight]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
I've read all that, Sep. My point is this: How do you know that those are the only two proven methods?
Cmon rbaldino, You know as well as all of us,that IF there were an easy ICH treatment WE WOULD ALL BUY IT. You have enough posts on here to realize that.

 

[sepulatian]

The only thing that I disagree with in that article is the life span of ich. It says two weeks. It is more like 3 weeks, but you have to understand the full life cycle. Ich also is ever-evolving as any parasite is. They adapt to survive. The recomended time for a fallow system used to be 3 weeks. Then we started getting reports of ich still living in the fallow tank after 4-5 weeks. 6 weeks has been safe for all. Ich does not always take this long to die off, but it does on occasion. One could certainly put ther fish back in sooner, but if they have to re-treat it is VERY stressful to the fish. Hypo takes 5 weeks typically. By keeping the fish in the qt one more week, they elliminate the risk of reinfestation. This article is also about FW fish, which is why you see no mention of hyposalinity. It does say to medicate for 10-14 days, in saltwater (as with eveything in salt) it takes longer for medication to be effective. Copper treatment is done in 3 week. It does not say in this artcle what medication, it just says to medicate. How do you know that she is not talking about copper treatment?

 

[azfishgal]

Just to add my two cents again. I'm not a doctor, I don't have a degree in Marine Biology, BUT I do have a head on my shoulders and a brain to think for myself. I have experienced ich in both my freshwater tank and saltwater tank. I tried meds in my freshwater tank only to lose three fish, was it meds, or just the ich, one will never know. But I struggled with it for several months before reading an article about raising the temp and leaving it there for 4 weeks (one week past the life cycle of ich). It worked, no more ich. I didn't add meds, just raise the temp (that's for freshwater only). With the saltwater tank I didn't want to use meds after my experience with my freshwater tank, so I did Hypo for three weeks plus an additional week to raise the salinity. Why use meds when it's been proven you don't have to? (I was in the middle of QT a new fish and the ich didn't pop it's ugly head until 2 1/2 weeks into QT).
Just because someone has a PHD doesn't mean they know more than those that are actually in the trenches. My daughter's Neurologist said food will NOT effect her tics, BUT in talking with other parents that are having to deal with this issue have found some food additives can trigger the tics in there children. After dealing with this issue for the past year, I have found this to be true. My daughter's neorologist still says food has nothing to do with it because there has never been any "scientific" proof. But what would you do? Change your child's diet, or put them on meds. I have chosen to change my daughter's diet.

 

[1journeyman]

It's from about.com. Very informative. Read it and see if you still want to roll your eyes. Personally, it sounds pretty valid to me. This link should be okay:
****
This is one of the reasons we don't like links to be posted.... The info might be great, except for the fact that it refers to treating FRESH WATER ICH (Ichthyophthirius multifilis)!!! As I don't keep freshwater tanks I cannot critique the linked info.
Please refer to the disease forums for the best, time tested, proven methods. While the "experts" (authors who have in fact done studies) disagree on whether copper or Hyposalinty work best I see very little interest in other solutions.
I'm going to move this to the disease forum so you get some attention from the pros around here.

 

[spanko]

*******************
How about some information from the Concientious Aquariast himself, Bob Fenner
Please don't post links to competitor sites or sites that advertise for competitors. 1Journeyman

 

[wattsupdoc]

Yes, and according to Mr. Fenner there are several ways to treat it. As a matter of fact, from what I've read he doesnt really endorse Hypo as an effective means. However he dosen't state that it is innefective completely. He states that it is just to inconsistant. He does seem to endorse FW dips with methylene blue , quarantine and going fallow. I do want to state that from what I've seen here though that the HYPO process is much more refined and intracate. It is my belief that the hypo processes he has had experience with have not been done as this sites method is outlined. And it seems as though it would be more effective. Still though we see times when there are those who do not effectively eliminate the little buggers through hypo, mostly it seems that they have not followed the procedure to the "T".
Also I have read from his site, formaline baths are another way to treat ICK, but again there that is a very powerful treatment and is actually deadly to most all life. There are also other treatments, but they still go along the same lines.
Overall, it is my belief that the procedures that are advocated here are probably the safest and most effective methods to utilize for treatment. Wich IMO is the reason why they are advocated here.
BTW Mr. Fenner does seem to be very much an advocate of the FW dips with Methylene blue, but I never really see anyone on here endorsing/ suggesting it. :notsure: He still though recommends QT as a first means of defense, going fallow as treatment for contaminated DT's.

 

[azfishgal]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
BTW Mr. Fenner does seem to be very much an advocate of the FW dips with Methylene blue, but I never really see anyone on here endorsing/ suggesting it. :notsure: He still though recommends QT as a first means of defense, going fallow as treatment for contaminated DT's.
It's interesting that you mentioned this, because I did a FW dip with Methylene blue with my clowns, then put them in QT. 2 1/2 weeks later ich appeared.

I then went through the 3 week Hypo (4 weeks total), and now my clowns seem to be doing very well.