How to Cure Saltwater Ich

chaosfyre

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/20#post_3516759
Was it that obvious
First I want to thank you for the info. Now let me throw out some numbers.
In the Trophont stage where the adult parasite is attached to a fish and feeding on it the time frame is 3 to 7 days
In the Trophont free swimming stage where the parasite has fallen off the fish it looks for a place to attach its self, this stage can take up to 18hrs.
In the Tomont stage where the parasite goes into reproductive mode while it is attached to something the time frame is 3 to 28 days.
In the Theront stage where the newly hatched parasite is fee swimming and looking for a host. The time frame is 24 to 48 hrs.
If we add the longer time frames we come up with approximately five weeks add one week for a margin of error and most people I know hypo for six weeks.
Even with the mild case you run the risk of contaminating your DT via water transport of the parasite. You may have just lucked out.
why would you use a lower temp for a bad case and a higher one for a mild one ? Higher temp does speed braking the life cycle of ick as i stated in my other post
FYI I spent a good amount of time on line trying to find some documentation stating that raising the temp to the highest safe level for the fish would kill the ick parasite. i could not find any I then put in a call to my friends at Mote marine and ask about temp and ick this is what I was told. a higher temp in of itself does not kill saltwater ick. A few degree increase will speed up the life cycle enabling the parasite to enter the killing zone quicker.. However, solubility of oxygen in seawater goes down as temperature goes up, so additional circulation and aeration may be required.
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I actually wanted to use a higher temp for both, but my heater was on the verge of dying and could only manage 75. It actually DID die a few days ago... that is why I had to move the purple tang into the DT ahead of time. I have a new heater now, and he is going back into the QT. I might just say, screw it, and by a large QT tank and just throw all my fish in there for 8 weeks and let my main tank lie fallow. Time to hunt on craigslist....Also, I use an air stone in my QT, and in my DT I've got the return flow kicking up tons of bubbles, plus two powerheads, and an aqueon filter to help with oxygenation.
After some research, I managed to find an article by a PhD confirming that the higher temp does speed up the cycle of marine ich, but does not kill them (unless you want to use 90-100 degrees, which also will kill fish).
 

chaosfyre

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranberry http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/20#post_3516877
Within the temperature range our tropical fish can survive, ich is viable at every degree and beyond. The cold water strain, however, have optimal temperatures below what we would see in the tropical setting. I promise I'll get those exact numbers to you once I finish my set of shifts. I think you will enjoy reading some nice raw data and/or research studies for yourself.
Do you have access to a library that does inter library loans? Or one that happens to have a rocking marine biology section? Friend in a hospital? (they usually have good library connections). The library is where all the correct answers are, not forum falsities.
The articles that you referenced above are not the type of articles I'm referring to. I'm talking gorgeous academic peer reviewed research articles. It's too bad they can be so difficult for most people to get their hands on.
I definitely think this is a great idea. I managed to find some fairly credible articles on the subject, and have posted them. However, as university staff, I have access to the university library. I will see if I can find some good papers on the subject through some source besides google! :)
 

sweatervest13

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFyre http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/40#post_3516974
I actually wanted to use a higher temp for both, but my heater was on the verge of dying and could only manage 75. It actually DID die a few days ago... that is why I had to move the purple tang into the DT ahead of time. I have a new heater now, and he is going back into the QT. I might just say, screw it, and by a large QT tank and just throw all my fish in there for 8 weeks and let my main tank lie fallow. Time to hunt on craigslist....Also, I use an air stone in my QT, and in my DT I've got the return flow kicking up tons of bubbles, plus two powerheads, and an aqueon filter to help with oxygenation.
After some research, I managed to find an article by a PhD confirming that the higher temp does speed up the cycle of marine ich, but does not kill them (unless you want to use 90-100 degrees, which also will kill fish).

I think that getting a larger QT, putting all the fish in there, and letting the DT go fallow is a great idea!! 8 weeks may be long, but its cautious. I would see how everything looks after the 6 weeks recommended earlier and go from there.
I have to say that I like your passion!! You have the research part down!! Now you are getting the real life experience in SW going as well. Keep up the good work.
 

chaosfyre

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatervest13 http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/40#post_3516976

I think that getting a larger QT, putting all the fish in there, and letting the DT go fallow is a great idea!! 8 weeks may be long, but its cautious. I would see how everything looks after the 6 weeks recommended earlier and go from there.
I have to say that I like your passion!! You have the research part down!! Now you are getting the real life experience in SW going as well. Keep up the good work.
lol thanks. I am a scientist, and I love research and a bit of experimentation. Well, I've seen the fallow thing recommended anywhere from 4-10 weeks. I read somewhere a few hours ago that sometimes the ich cycle is twice as long as usual. Probably due to temperature variations. So, after 8 weeks its 99.9% gone, after 10 weeks there's some small freak chance that a bit of it remains...So I guess 8 weeks it is. It would be annoying to take them out for 6 weeks, then find some little bit remained and have to start all over from week one. I may change my mind about how long they'll be in it though. The recommended times vary so much, I think I'll do more research on that. They'll of course be in hypo in the QT if I do manage to find a large tank for cheap. If its a nice tank, maybe I'll be tempted to set up a second DT after this is over. :)
Well for sure a larger QT would make me feel a lot more comfortable about leaving fish in for longer. I check parameters all the time in the QT, and even then I already had one near disaster and that was during a period of only 2 weeks. I have enough backup equipment to sustain another 90 gallon tank, so I might as well use it... hopefully I won't need a backup for my backups during those 6-8 weeks!
 

chaosfyre

Member
Oh, I thought of something else-- it occurred to me that some sources have said osmosis lyses the ich, and others say the low salinity just inhibits breeding during the Tomont stage. If the first was true, ich would die within 3-7 days. If the second was true, the ich's reproduction would be halted within 12-14 days. Because most articles agree that at least 3-4 weeks is needed for hyposalinity to be effective, I must now assume the second is true and NOT the first. I think that is something to edit in the OP.
If the ich is halted in tomont stage at 2 weeks, but a tomont cysts just happen to stay attached to the fish (instead of rock, etc) as I read can happen, then removing the fish from hyposalinity after 2 weeks would allow any freak tomonts stuck to the fish to continue reproduction and re-bloom. If there is a cyst attached to the fish itself, then it would theoretically take up to 28 days for that reproductive cyst to die... (I think). That means that to cover 100% certainty, you'd have to wait 6 weeks--IF ich cycles are normal. If they are twice as long as normal, (maybe the strain of ich, or maybe the temperature of the water), then you'd have to wait twice as long-- i.e. 8 weeks for almost 100% certainty.
I believe this is where they are getting the numbers from. It makes sense.
However, after 2 wks in hypo, theoretically, using a freshwater dip might help pop any freak tomonts (reproductive cysts) that are stuck on the fish, and that followed by reintroduction to hyposalinity would minimize contamination of any free forms to the DT. Maybe give the fish another 3-7 days in QT to make sure the tomonts are off. That would be about 3-4 weeks total.
Maybe in this fashion, quarantine could be minimized to 3-4 weeks safely. Perhaps this is where that number comes from.
I would have to research my theory on how freshwater dips affect tomont stage of ich. Also, there is the fact that freshwater dips are frowned upon in most cases. My purple tang was recieving freshwater dips from the LFS before I rescued him. They told me he had another 3 days of treatment to go... but I did not see that freshwater dip had any visible effect. In hyposalinity, however, the spots were gone on the first day. Wierd. Maybe they were not doing the freshwater dips right. I have not researched that yet.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
And then there is always the daunting possibility that without microscopic identification this white spot we see and automatically identify as ick is really a LOOK ALIKE PARISITE
With a entirely different life cycle
 

ellabell

New Member
I want to thank all of you for all of the great infornation you provided!! I have had my 180g DT in hypo for 4 weeks today, all of my fish are doing fantastic!! My husband and I have been in this hobby for about 2 years now and just when we think that we have everything under control it seems like we get hit with a curveball. There are always new lessons to be learned, and almost losing all of our fish to ich definitely taught us a few. Hypo in the QT tank sounds like a really good idea. Next time we take a fish out of the QT and put them in the DT I think we will also keep the QT tank up and running for a while in case trouble arises again. Most importantly we actually HAVE a 20g QT tank! Previously we had a 65g tank that was supposed to be a "QT" but then turned into a tank filled with live rock,sand, a few fish, one thing just led to another. I guess the one thing I am just not sure of looking back is just this one question, if any of you have an answer or thoughts on the subject please share! When you add a new fish to the DT that has been properly quarantined how long do you wait to pull it out of the DT if the adjustment is not going well?? We had added a Pakistani Butterfly to the tank ( also have a Naso tang, Blueface Angel,Flame angel, 4 clowns, 3 chromis, and 1 blue damsel), and the Blue face harrassed him pretty good for the first few days. The Pakistani seemed to hold his own pretty well...the Naso was the buffer between the 2 of them, everyone was eating and doiing well. Ithink it was just past the first week he was in there that the Pakistani started to break out with just a few white spots which immediatley got worse within the next 24 hours. Should I have pulled him out as soon as it looked like they weren't all going to get along?? Also I am thinking I should stick to fish that are much smaller than my Blueface next time when we add them to the tank. The Pakistani was only an ich or so smaller than the Blueface maybe that was part of the problem. Thank you all again!
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The best thing you can do for your fish, your tank, and for your own piece of mind and enjoyment of your DT, is to keep a running QT... QT all new fish for a min of 3 weeks before placing them in the DT.
It is not as much a bother as you may think, and you can enjoy your new fish wo fear of bringing down your whole system because of something that could have easily been avoided.
 

sweatervest13

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/40#post_3519687
The best thing you can do for your fish, your tank, and for your own piece of mind and enjoyment of your DT, is to keep a running QT... QT all new fish for a min of 3 weeks before placing them in the DT.
It is not as much a bother as you may think, and you can enjoy your new fish wo fear of bringing down your whole system because of something that could have easily been avoided.
+1000!!
 

chaosfyre

Member
Well, the good news is that my rescue fish (the purple tang) is looking great! He is beautiful and healthy.
I had to take him out of the quarantine early because I was afraid he wasn't eating well and was developing later line erosion (or something) and he looked skinny. The quarantine I have was really too small for that fish. Its only 10 gallons. So I moved him into the display tank. I haven't seen any sign of ich on him, and within days of eating a normal diet and having more space, he became healthy.
I dropped the idea of getting a new 45 or larger quarantine tank to put all my fish in and letting my DT lay fallow for 8 weeks. The only reason is because A) I don't have the money right now, and B) if there is ich in the DT, my fish are adjusted or not stressed enough for it to break out into spots. I'm sure its there, quietly doing its cycle, but its not visible or rampant. If I start to see a problem with one of my fish I can drop him into hyposalinity to stem that particular infection. Otherwise, I think I'll go the "wait 11 months until the ich is gone" route unless there's a huge breakout or something.
 

devildoc

New Member
Hey everyone I just wanted to chime in real fast I have a 120 gallon sps Dom tank wit 2 tangs both have had ick both lost with in 3 days minced garlic add 1tsp to food and feed twice a day it falls into your display but your other fish are eating the same garlic so it helps them as well. It really does work it also works for your freshwater fish. Easy thing to do is buy 25 cloves and soak them and mince then drain through cheese cloth and store the liquid in your refrigerator.
 

devildoc

New Member
I forgot to mention your cleanup crew will eat the ick from the sand bed once it falls off your fish
 

cranberry

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFyre http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/40#post_3516983
Oh, I thought of something else-- it occurred to me that some sources have said osmosis lyses the ich, and others say the low salinity just inhibits breeding during the Tomont stage. If the first was true, ich would die within 3-7 days. If the second was true, the ich's reproduction would be halted within 12-14 days. Because most articles agree that at least 3-4 weeks is needed for hyposalinity to be effective, I must now assume the second is true and NOT the first.
They are both kindda true. Outside a certain range, the tomonts will not release the tomites. When the salinity is brought back within an acceptable range, the tomites will be released. Below a certain percentage (1.008), the tomonts will rupture, releasing their endoplasm. Note I said the tomonts will rupture, that not a typo. Now, if they manage to be in clusters, they are more impervious to hypo treatment, even below 1.008.
Treatments for ectoparasites and disease in captive Western Australian dhufish. Aquaculture International
8: 349-361, 2000.
Could you remind what I was going to find journals on? I kinnda can't remember :
 

devildoc

New Member
I have more info and articles once I find them I will post the tang in my aviator was first one I treated with garlic and it worked in less then three days comes out and grazes all day when before he wouldn't
 

cranberry

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoc http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/40#post_3520702
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1985626
I mean this with the utmost of respect and am pointing this out to be helpful.... but that's someones post, not a valid reference when trying to decipher between correct and incorrect information.
Did he mention the CUC in that article and I just missed it? I couldn't see it.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFyre http:///t/394389/how-to-cure-saltwater-ich/20#post_3516746
@Cranberry: I would love to see more info about the temperature effects on marine ich. I'm not sure where I read about the temp anymore, so I don't know about the credibility of that statement. However, others in the thread have claimed to stop ich with solely raising the temp and not lowering the salinity, so it probably has some credence. I used both methods so I can't say for sure which is more responsible for curing ich in my particular case.
However, it did take the fish with a bad case of ich longer to be cured than the fish with a mild case (as you would expect), but I used 75 degrees for the bad case and 80+ degrees for the mild case. The difference in time for the fish to be cured could be due to a number of factors, but maybe higher temperature played a part in speeding the recovery of the mild case.
We have to remember there are strains, so the optimal temperature will not be the same across the board. I will post other references as I come across them. This is an older study but raw data is raw data and doesn't go out of date. The optimal temperature was actually 86! Second runner up was 77. They stopped altogether at 98.6. 68 degrees still allowed for 40% to be released!
People like to say ****** is not affected by temperature, but it's easy to see they are. Just not any of the temperatures that would have desirable affects are within the tolerance range of our fish.
Cheung, J. P., Nigrelli, R. F., & Ruggieri, G.D. (1979) Studies of cryptocaryonias in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on the reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans. Journal of Fish Disease vol 2 (93-97)
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Just chiming in, and I haven't read the entire thread... I wanted to comment about the temps. Years ago in my 90g mini reef, I had a little tiny Hippo tang that stayed ich infected, I didn't have a QT large enough to house all of my fish...so a fishless tank was not doable. The other fish seemed able to resist getting infected too bad, but the little Hippo would break out at the drop of a hat and it would all start again. I upped the temps to 82. The temp didn't really do anything to the ich, but it made my Hippo happy and healthier. I also got a cleaner shrimp that like to pick the ich out of the fish' gills, and added fresh garlic juice to the food.
I figured it went this way...We have tropical fish, and we lower the temps to try and control the bacteria and algae growth. An unhappy fish is a stressed fish, and a stressed fish will succumb to the parasite. I gave up adding any new fish, but was determined to keep those I had very healthy and stress free. The higher temps, along with the cleaner shrimp and garlic laced food, worked to keep the whole system going.
Fast forward 1.5 years, I had to move, and a move is supper stressful for critters. To my amazement not a single spot emerged, not even on the stress prone Hippo tang. I never had another break out of the parasite since, and that mini reef was going 5 years before I changed up to a Potbelly seahorse tank. Now I tell everyone to quarantine their fish and save themselves the headache.
I don't think the higher temps does anything to the ich, but it helps the fish resist getting infected and overcome by it.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Flower, when my temps hit 82, my fish are stressed. All fish don't come from the same area and all areas don't have the same temperature. So, if someone's fish was used to 78, either because they were just removed from the ocean at that temp or have been acclimated over time, they are going to get stressed when you put it up to 82. If they had a little bit of Ich, that could "bring it on" or make it worse. Not all stress is visible either, so I can't assume because I don't see it, it's not there.
I also agree with QT, but I had a pair of lions that were in a QT tank for over a year (they didn't grow as fast as I wanted them to). No Ich. Then I moved them to a new tank with new tankmates and BOOM! Ok, baby BOOM, as there were only a few spots. But unless you treat with a proven cure, QT doesn't prevent you bringing Ich into your tank. It reduces your odds, but it doesn't prevent it.
Garlic is great, keep it up, but they have proven that it needs to be high doses, like 30% of the fishes diet, to combat Ich.
 
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