How to determine turnover rate ???

[gio28]

how do you determine how much GPH are going through your sump? i cant think of a way to find out. i havent set my sump up yet but i know what overflow box im using and what return pump. the overflow is an eshoppps 800 (800gph) and a via aqua water pump (600GPH at 4').
obviously the turnover rate you could determine if the pump pushed 600 GPH back into the DT, but what if you slow the flow to be slower? how do you tell this? i have a ball valve that i am going to use to regulate the flow. but if i want the sump to have 400GPH flowing through it...how do i tell when its at 400GPH. any help? thanks.

 

[kaingers]

http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

 

[king_neptune]

that is an AWESOME link!! bookmarked!

 

[gio28]

this is a great link, but it doesn't have my pump on the list...idk how to determine it.

 

[kaingers]

Your pump should have a GPH output. Select a pump on the list that closely resembles your pumps performance.

 

[vince-1961]

skip all that and do it the easy way. Fill a one gallon container from the DT drain and time it. If it takes 1 minute, then 1 gpm or 60 gph. If 15 seconds, then 4 gpm or 360 gph.
If you restrict the flow of drain water to less than what the pump is returning to the DT, the sump will run dry as the DT overflows.

 

[kaingers]

I'm not so sure if I understand how to do that concept without making a complete mess or running my return dry. The calculator factors in the head loss from 90 degree elbows and ball valves as well as how high you are pumping the water to the display. Its not a science, just gives you an idea of what kind of turnover your tank is getting.

 

[vince-1961]

You don't understand how to do what? Time how long it takes to drain a gallon of water or figure out your actual head and then read a chart for your particular pump?

 

[gio28]

i dont understand how to adjust my pump and overflow to give me 400PGH through my sump...because that i the ideal amount for the fuge + DSB to work at its best...from what i've heard

 

[vince-1961]

Forgive me for nisunderstanding the nature of your question. You are asking how to adjust the rate at which waters flows into (and out of) your sump, correct?
The answer is: you don't adjust the flowrate through your sump at all, because that is nothing more than the exact same rate at which you are pumping water into your display tank. If the rate going through your sump is different from the rate being pumped into your DT, then one or the other will overflow and you'll have a real mess on your hand.
Generally speaking, the issue is not the flowrate through your sump, but rather the turnover of your display tank, meaning that you want to turn the total volume of your display tank over 10 to 20 times per hour. Is your sump pump is the only thing you have that creates water movement in your DT? If you have a 20 gallon tank, then your sump pump needs to be doing, after all your head, 200 to 400 GPH. There are lots of larger, stronger pumps on the market that can do that even with 10 feet of head. There are also a lot of smaller, weaker pumps on the market that cannot.
Do you have a 20 gallon aquarium? If not, what size? What pump do you have? How many feet of head?
Most folks supplement their sump pumps with some sort of fan mounted on the inside of the DT to create more water flow inside the DT to get up to the 20x mark.
Does this answer your question?

 

[gio28]

that helped alot thanks.
my pump pushes about 600GHP @ 4'...which is how high my tank is. my overflow is rated 800GPH. my tank size is 36 gallons and my sump is about 15 gallons when full of water. im looking for the right flow to let my fuge chamber in my sump have time to do what it needs to do to filter the water.

 

[zman1]

vince-1961 is giving you some great information. You can do all the math, which is the ideal condition and over time you will get film buildup in lines and pump that slow flow. Even with the most vigilant husbandry process, you can't clean every inch. So as Vince said check your drain rate with a 1 gallon or what ever size container and do the math to calculate flow rate. If you have more flow than you desire c ontrol/restrict the output of the return pump with a ball-valve. Supplement your tank turnover with powerheads or a closed-loop in the main display tank.

 

[gio28]

thanks for all of your guy's help. i understand it alot better now.

 

[vince-1961]

For a 36 gallon aquarium, everything you use to move water around the inside of your display tank should add up to 720 GPH. Your main sump pump is rated for 600 GPH @ 4 feet of head. Now to that 4 feet, you need to add 1 foot for every right angle turn all the way along the pipes. (Two 45 degree turns, I am told, actually add more resistance than a single 90 degree turn.) That will give you a better idea of what your main pump is actually doing. Just supplement it with what I call a water fan mounted inside your DT. Everyone else calls them powerheads.
The capacity of your drains must always be greater than the capacity of your pump; otherwise, you're in trouble.
It sounds to me like you seek nothing more than a calm refugium in your sump, a/k/a a sump with a refugium that is off to the side of the main flow. The best sump is always the one you design and create yourself!
There's a ton of threads on this site about designing sumps. Just remember one thing when designing your new, custom-made sump: several gallons of water will drain from the DT to the sump when the main pump is off, so account for it.
oh BTW, Regarding ZMAN's suggestion that you may want to consider restricting the output of your pump with a ball valve, be advised that some pumps are designed to have the output dialed back or restricted w/o harming the pump. Other pumps will be damaged by doing so.

 

[gio28]

thanks. that was alot of very helpful info. i built my own sump...its pretty basic because my stand is tight on space. there is an intake/skimmer/heater chamber...then the fuge...then the baffles...then the return chamber. my fuge is 1/2 of my sump so it is the most important part of it. hopefully it will lower my nitrates and keep algae out of the main tank.
as for the DT water draining into the sump during a power outage...i added around 5 gallons of water to the normally filled sump before it overflowed. so my sump is 3/4 full of water normally. and i could also adjust my overflow if there was a problem.
my pump pushes my water at 4' (600GPH) then i have to subtract 2- 45 angles and 2- 90 angles from that power. so thats like 7-8'. which equals out to about 400GPH which is from what i've heard...the best amount of flow through a fuge w/ a DSB and chaeto.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3105276
Regarding ZMAN's suggestion that you may want to consider restricting the output of your pump with a ball valve, be advised that some pumps are designed to have the output dialed back or restricted w/o harming the pump. Other pumps will be damaged by doing so.
Remember restricting the output is the exact same thing as additional height, turns and piping - head pressure. Never exceed the maximum head ratings...

 

[darrinsimon]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3105276
The capacity of your drains must always be greater than the capacity of your pump; otherwise, you're in trouble.
.
Hello Gio28 I hope you don't mind if I jump in here, I am planning on incorporating a sump in the near future. I found a great article here http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html
Vince's quote above (that part of it anyway) has me confused. Is he saying the DT should drain water faster than the sump returns it? Wouldn't the sump overflow if the DT is draining it faster than the sump could return it? I thought you wanted the draining to pretty much match the return? No?
I am such a sump noob. Vince? Help I am drowning in my sump plans!

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3105678
Remember restricting the output is the exact same thing as additional height, turns and piping - head pressure. Never exceed the maximum head ratings...
When you exceed the max head rating the water flow usually slows to just a trickle. It's doesn't cause any harm to the pump AFAIK.

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3107884
When you exceed the max head rating the water flow usually slows to just a trickle. It's doesn't cause any harm to the pump AFAIK.
At some point might there be back pressure that would cause the pump to work harder and perhaps overheat???? Or maybe it soes not matter because people throttle back the output with ball valves don't they?
IDK just askin.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3107906
At some point might there be back pressure that would cause the pump to work harder and perhaps overheat???? Or maybe it soes not matter because people throttle back the output with ball valves don't they?
IDK just askin.
If you actually closed the ball valve completely so there was no flow AND it was a watercooled pump then yes, it could overheat. As long as there's a trickle of flow it will be enough to cool a hobby sized pump. But then, who would restrict their flow that much?