How to size my return pump

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 55ggramma http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump#post_3462504
Does a sump/Refugium replace a mechanical filter?
Technically speaking, no. Mechanical filtration are things like filter sponges, filter floss..etc. On sumps and refugiums if people want mechanical filtration they usually go for something like filter socks on the drain pipe.

 

[55ggramma]

Yea i was looking at a design where the intake poured through 2 seperate socks then into an algea bay area then at the end a 3rd bay held a skimmer and the return pump.
Im guessing the socks hold carbon and maybe something for phosphates?
I think i want to build this myself with the extra tank that i have

 

[55ggramma]

i've done some reading on Miracle Mud and cultivating cheato. but still want to do some more research before figuring out how i want to set it up
Definetly want to a 30inch long tank to build it with

 

[xandrew245x]

You can completely replace mechanic filtration, but you probably shouldn't. Like in my set up, it was meant to use bioballs and a filter sock, well I ditched both, replaced bioballs with live rock rubble and just got rid of the filter sock. I do use the filter sock every now and then if I have a lot of particals I want to filter out.
Using a refugeium is a great thing to, it allows you to most commonly grow plants such as chaeto, which remove harmful substances from your water column.
For my main filtration I really don't use any mechanical, other than my skimmer, which is almost a must. I use live rock rubble, a deep sand bed, and plants to help filter the natural way!
As for return pump size, you want something that is going to be less than your overflow, or else you will overflow your DT. You could go with a bigger pump, but you would have to put a tee off of it that returns back to the sump, and you will need ball valves to then control the flow. This allows you to tune to the exact amount of flow you want going through your tank.

 

[florida joe]

I would research drilling syphon brakes in your return lines this gives you the ability to move the out flow of water deeper into your tank if you desire

 

[icedtc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrew245x http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462569As for return pump size, you want something that is going to be less than your overflow, or else you will overflow your DT. You could go with a bigger pump, but you would have to put a tee off of it that returns back to the sump, and you will need ball valves to then control the flow. This allows you to tune to the exact amount of flow you want going through your tank.
Like Andrew said, I believe this is the best setup as well. I have a ball valve on my overflow and return...not only to adjust the exact amount of flow...but also so when you need to do maintenance/etc. on your sump it is simple. I just unplug my return pump and close both ball valves. Once I'm ready to start the siphon up again all I do is open the valves, turn on the return, and adjust my overflow via the ballvalve.
Just as a recommendation, I use an Eheim Compact+ 3000 and it's whisper quiet. It also has an edjustment knob on the side if you need to adjust the return rate. But like most people have said, it's best to have your return wide open and adjust the overflow so you cannot ever have the return overflow your tank!
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462635
I would research drilling syphon brakes in your return lines this gives you the ability to move the out flow of water deeper into your tank if you desire
+1. When I first setup my sump and went for a power outage test, everything worked perfectly until I notcied my return line was still siphoning! To avoid this all you really need to do is drill a tiny hole just under your waterline in the DT. So in the case where the power goes out, you will not get a reverse siphon effect. Basically that tiny hole sucks in air in the event of a power outage and stops the reverse siphon. Like Joe says, then you can also have your return flow as deep as you want without worrying about a reverse siphon draining the tank.
Just remember...some people use 2 holes just in case a snail/salt build up block a hole. Also make sure the hole is below your typical DT waterline so it doesn't shoot water all over the place and it won't have an annoying water sound since it's below the surface.

 

[marvelfan]

I just asked a very similar question about this in my thread today too. I just got back from buying all the ball valves and couplings I'll need to build this set up tonight. I ran my 950 GPH pump directly up to the tank last night. Haven't tested it, but the overflow is going to be slower rate then my pump at this point. The T fitting with ball joint should be just the answer to ease my mind. I have to thank Xandrew for some good advice!
+1 on the syphon break hole as well.
How deep into the tank do you run your return. I was wondering if I should let the return just fill at the top of the top or force the water to the middle or bottom of the tank? Any benefits to one over the other. Would it be a good idea to use the return to generate flow in a certain region? I originally had the return go about 4 inches down right above my circulation pump, but tonight I get to do a redo.

 

[icedtc]

Quote:
How deep into the tank do you run your return. I was wondering if I should let the return just fill at the top of the top or force the water to the middle or bottom of the tank? Any benefits to one over the other. Would it be a good idea to use the return to generate flow in a certain region? I originally had the return go about 4 inches down right above my circulation pump, but tonight I get to do a redo.
I think it really depends on your tank setup and where your powerheads are going to be. I have an oddball corner tank so I have my return about 6" under the water in my back corner so it can make a nice flow where my powerheads don't reach.
My assumption would be that the best place for your return is where the least flow is currently. Some people also make a spray bar or use one of those black accordian type attachments (sorry I can't think of the actual name!) for that much more water movement.

 

[marvelfan]

Hmmm.. a Surface spray bar to agitate the water surface may be a good option. Thinking I could place a 3/4 inch to 1/2 inch adapter on one end and run a 1/2 inch piece of PVC from front to back (not sure I'd have enough pressure to cover the length of my tank.).. Drill some holes in it and let it rip.
Anyone have any opinions on spray bars. Also want to make sure they capping off the spray bar system wouldn't put too much pressure on the pump, but I guess having the drain line to the sump would relieve that.
Something to think about. I can always add it on later as well.

 

[xandrew245x]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelFan http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462705
Hmmm.. a Surface spray bar to agitate the water surface may be a good option. Thinking I could place a 3/4 inch to 1/2 inch adapter on one end and run a 1/2 inch piece of PVC from front to back (not sure I'd have enough pressure to cover the length of my tank.).. Drill some holes in it and let it rip.
Anyone have any opinions on spray bars. Also want to make sure they capping off the spray bar system wouldn't put too much pressure on the pump, but I guess having the drain line to the sump would relieve that.
Something to think about. I can always add it on later as well.
I'm thinking about switching over to a spray bar to run half way across the back side of my tank, and have it pushing water down and towards the front of the tank.

 

[2quills]

Here's how I've got mine set up to run. Haven't ran it long term like this, so far just testing it out. I have a couple of side flow nozzles that will spray water at the surface and creates extra surface agitation. They also act as siphon breaks when the pump gets cut off. On the ends I have some directional nozzles that I can aim any which way. But you can use Loc Line fittings in about a zillion different ways.
During normal operation the the whole thing runs flush with the surface of the water. I just have them lifted up in this particular image when I first tested the system. I was also using a very very under powered pump just to circulate water at the time. I put a much bigger pump on it since then and it functions beautifully. The good thing about it is it has siphon breaks but is also near the surface so It's almost virtually as fail safe as you can possibly get. And I still can do directional flow so it's all good. They have quite a few different types of nozzles and stuff that you can get creative with.

 

[acrylic51]

I like Corey.....I'd advise against spray bars......I question their real benefit....I understand a lot of people use them, but depending how they are designed is a big issue.....It's a little more to it than drilling a bunch of holes in a pipe and getting adequate water flow......Water will take the least resistive path, so the holes closer to the pump will push more water if the design is poor. Also an issue is how they are mounted and positioned.....If they are buried in the tank as some do the become a flood hazard as Corey pointed out, but then it becomes an ordeal cleaning the "port holes" after time......
Just my .02

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icedtc http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462676
I think it really depends on your tank setup and where your powerheads are going to be. I have an oddball corner tank so I have my return about 6" under the water in my back corner so it can make a nice flow where my powerheads don't reach.
My assumption would be that the best place for your return is where the least flow is currently. Some people also make a spray bar or use one of those black accordian type attachments (sorry I can't think of the actual name!) for that much more water movement.
Have to disagree......That's the purpose of PH's or CL's to make up where your lacking flow....Proper return placement is to maximize the efficiency of your overflow system....The purpose is to suspend decaying matter into the water column and to efficiently remove them before they can settle and break down. My point is you use your returns to direct your water flow pattern towards your overflow to accomplish this and in turn your efficiently moving water within your DT.....

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462748
My point is you use your returns to direct your water flow pattern towards your overflow to accomplish this and in turn your efficiently moving water within your DT.....
I've always like the idea of using them that way. In my case the two side flow nozzles effectively push water in strait jets from the back towards the front panel of the tank. This in turn creates a circulation that moves the surface water around and towards the individual overflows on each side of the tank. I also like the idea of using some of the flow from the returns to help aid in tank flow. This way not all of my clean water is pushed out at the surface for it to drain right back down to the sump. I want some of that clean water directed down into the tank so that will get mixed up by the power heads.

 

[acrylic51]

Corey you knew where I was headed with the return directions......

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/390791/how-to-size-my-return-pump/20#post_3462756
Corey you knew where I was headed with the return directions......
Ofcorse

 

[marvelfan]

Think i'll pass on the spray bar for now. I may just put a 45 degree fitting on my vertical return to push the flow down and towards the front of the tank. That way the circulation pumps will be able to catch the fresh flow and circulate it around the tank back around to the overflow.
Leads me to another question. Does the circulation direction make any difference; counter-clockwise versus clockwise. My set up right now is a clockwise flow.