Hyposalinity Question

[brandons]

I have a fish in QT that has ick and I'm opting to use Hypo treatment since it seems to be the best option; healthwise for the fish and less problematic. I also have a refractometer so I'm good in that area.
I have a 10g quarantine tank that I need to take from 1.025sg to 1.009sg. I'm suppose to do it over a 48 hour period. I was trying to do the math and setup a schedule as to when I could do the waterchanges.
I was thinking of taking 1.5g out of the tank and replacing it with 1.5g DI water. The schedule would be as follows:
Tonight
Tomorrow during lunch 11am-12pm
Tomorrow after work 4pm
Tomorrow evening 8-10pm
The next day during lunch 11am-12pm
The next day after work 4pm
If I do 1.5g each change the SG numbers should reflect this:
1.025
1.02125
1.0180625
1.015353125
1.013050156
1.011092633
1.009428738
Or the other option would be to do 1 gallon change each time, but it would be stretched out longer unless I could do them closer together. The schedule would reflect the one above, but have another in the evening of the next day and then two the following day at lunch and after work. The SG table would reflect below:
1.025
1.0225
1.02025
1.018225
1.0164025
1.01476225
1.013286025
1.011957423
1.01076168
1.009685512
My question is, which would be better for the fish; balancing between not stressing him out and not letting the ich get too bad.
Thanks for any help.

 

[michaeltx]

This is long but very informative and might answer your questions and help with the procedure of hypo
by jwtrojan44
NOTE: This procedure can not be performed in an environment containing live rock, live sand or inverts [including crabs, snails, corals, etc.] If you have a strictly Fish-Only setup, then the treatment can be done within the display, otherwise, you will need to treat infected fish in a quarantine/hospital tank.
You will need: Refractometer or a glass hydrometer calibrated to tank temperatures, pH buffers, a tank or quarantine area for the infected fish that is adequately filtered.
Hyposalinity is a procedure involving lowering the salinity from normal tank levels to 14 ppt (1.009 Specific Gravity) over the course of 48 hours. This is done by doing a series of small water changes using fresh dechlorinated water. During the procedure, pH must be closely monitored as pH tends to drop as water become less saline. Fish are maintained in hyposaline conditions for three weeks after all symptoms are gone. Again, accurate measuring is essential, and the standard swing arm hydrometers are not going to work. A refractometer or large glass lab grade hydrometer calibrated to tank temperatures is needed. Once the fish have been asymptotic for three weeks, the salinity is then raised back to display tank levels over the course of a week. Fish can not tolerate rapid increases in salinity. Leave the fish in quarantine at display tank levels for another week.
Your display will now have been fishless for at least four weeks, sufficient time to allow the parasite’s life cycle to be interrupted. ****** is an obligate parasite that requires a fish host. No fish=No host=No parasite. Ich is a fish-only parasite, it will not affect inverts.
Continue to monitor pH daily during the process and be prepared with buffers to address any pH problems. Also keep the water clean through proper filtration.

 

[michaeltx]

Temperature does matter when using a refractometer with ATC Automatic Temperature Compensation. But in most every case ...... only when we calibrate it.
Refractometers used to measure salinity have an optical glass prizm inside.
As light enters the prizm, the light is bent.
This light is bent and projected through to the eyepiece, where we see the upper and lower color line, as it's projected through the scale graduations.
We place a sample of our tankwater on the glass prizm, flip down the light diffusing lid, and allow light to shine through the device.
The amount the light is bent, is a direct result of how much "stuff" is in the sample.
The stuff in this case is salt ( and all the other minerals and elements in our saltwater ).
When we look at pure water - the light is not bent much.
When we look at saltwater - the light is bent more.
The whole thing about using these types of refractometers, and getting good accurate results, is by following the calibration procedure.
When we calibrate it - we place a few drops of distilled water on the prizm. Then we MUST allow this distilled water to come to the same temperature of the refractometer. Normally this is 68 degrees F.
The device is built to be calibrated at 68 degrees F.
If you calibrate it with distilled water at any other temperature - then you will introduce error into the calibration procedure.
Basically - you'd be calibrating it to a different temperature than it was designed for. This would give you false readings every time you used it from that point on.
It's the room temperature that the refractometer is kept in, and used in, that is important when you calibrate it with distilled water.
The drops of distilled water will become whatever temperature the unit is. In other words - you place a few drops of distilled water on the prizm that is already at 68 F.
The drops will either warm up to or cool down to 68 F rather quickly.
Then, after a short period of time, you zero the device by turning the screw to align the scale's 1.00 SG and 0.0 ppt to line up with the two color boundary line. We shift the scale when we calibrate it.
As long as you do this calibration at 68 F, then you're good to go.
Afterwards - should the room temperature that you keep and use your refractometer stay within the 50 to 86 degrees F range, then the ATC auto temp compensation will adjust the reading for you. It's the room temperature ( refractometer temperature ) not the tankwater temperature that is temperature compensated and corrected.
The ATC is just another piece of glass ( prizm ) inside the unit that bends the light backdown. It sort of bends the light in the opposite direction as the main prizm. Not very much - just a little.
This feature "corrects" the image as the scale is viewed through the eyepiece. But again .... this auto temp compensation will only correct the reading we see if the refractometer and sample are at a temperature between 50 to 86 F.
Both salinity ppt and specific gravity "readings" are affected by temperature when using a refractometer. They have to be - they are on the same scale.

 

[michaeltx]

The salinity of the tankwater is not greatly affected by temperature, within the ranges we keep our aquariums. That tankwater contains so many parts per thousand of salt no matter what the temperature.
It's when we try to measure it, or convert this ppt into the specific gravity scale ...... that's when temperature comes into play.
Salinity in PPT or parts per thousand is just that.
Seawater is normally around 35 parts per thousand.
If you had 3500 pounds of saltwater, and boiled off all the water, you'd be left with 35 pounds of salts.
Specific gravity is not the same at all.
Specific gravity is a comparison of the saltwater to that of pure water.
Pure water having a specific gravity of 1.000
If you take 1 milliliter of pure water ( 1 cubic centimeter or cc ) and weigh it ...... it would weigh exactly 1.000 grams at 68 F.
If you take 1 milliliter of saltwater ( 1 cubic centimeter or cc ) and weigh it ..... it would weigh more than 1.000 grams at 68 F.
Why would it weigh more ? Because there's more stuff in it than just water. Theres' salt in there too, along with the pure water.
So it's going to weigh a little more. It's going to weigh 1.0XX
XX being the weight of the salt in that little cubic centimeter box.
How much more it weighs ? It all depends.
It depends on the actual amount of salt and minerals dissolved in the sample .... and it depends on the temperature. Now we're talking about density. How much stuff is dissolved in the water.
And the density of a given volume of liquid changes as the temperature changes.
If you're using a refractometer with ATC - and calibrate it right - and stay within the 50 to 86 F range, then you need not worry.
If you're using a refractometer without ATC - you still must calibrate it right ....... but you'll need a chart to correct the reading to the temperature of the sample.
If you are using either a floating or swing arm hydrometer - then you MUST know what temperature it has been calibrated at ( designed at ) and what the temperature of your tankwater is at the time you measure.
Then you look at a chart that plots temperature vs specific gravity - and determine the actual salinity in ppt.
Also realize that there are refractometers used to measure other liquids as well .... and some of them are designed to be calibrated/used at temperatures other than 68 F

 

[michaeltx]

Ich is a ciliated protozoan called Cryptocaryon irritans. Common names for this parasite in the hobby are: Ick, Ich, white spot disease.
There are only 2 viable choices for treatment for ich. Copper and hyposalinity. Hyposalinity is safe and beneficial in more respects than just getting rid of the parasite, so there really is no reason not to use this as a treatment choice for this parasite. So-called Reef Safe medications are risky business. They are never very effective and could effect your reef ecosystem and inverts.
The “Bug”. What is it? How does it Work?
Ich has a multiple stage life cycle of approx. 2 wks at tropical aquarium temperatures [77-80 degrees] during which time the parasite undergoes 4 phases:
1. The trophont stage is seen as the mature parasite attached to the fish, feeding off fish tissue. This has the appearance of salt-like grains often described by hobbyists as white spots or white dots, thus the common name of the disease, “White-Spot Disease”. What the hobbyist is actually seeing with these white dots is a protective covering, or cyst, which the parasite creates over itself as a means of protection. Parasite defense mechanism! As the parasite feeds it will grow in size. It is this growth or varying sizes of the trophont that may confuse the hobbyist to think that the infected fish is suffering from some other malady [such as lymphocysts]. The visible distinction between Ich, and some other problem is usually numbers. Left untreated, ich will multiply on the fish and usually cover the body—fins and body alike. [cycle timeframe: aprrox. 7 day stage]
2. The tomont stage occurs when the trophont matures after having fed on your fish for around a week. At this point, the parasite, engorged and well-fed on your fish, detaches its protective cystic covering, leaves the host fish and swims in the water column for several hours until it can find a place in the aquarium to settle. It will then attach itself to a surface in the aquarium: Sand, live rock and, perhaps even the surface of rocks where coral is attahced, or even the aquarium glass, filters, whatever. Once settled the cells within the cyst begin dividing to form more parasites [up to several hundred]. [cycle timeframe: several hours]
3. The tomite stage, are the products of the parasite reproducing. They become free-swimming in the aquarium as theronts. [cycle timeframe, approx 4 days at 77-80 degrees water temp].
4. The theront stage of ich are free-swimming protozoans that must locate a host fish within several hours, or die trying. This is the stage when fish become vulnerable to infection. The infection is transmitted through the water column.
When can I kill ich?
Some ich can be killed while still on the fish with freshwater dips. The operative word here being only “some”. Freshwater dips will not cure ich . At best, it can be employed when a fish is so infected with parasitic cysts that serious consequence, such as eminent death, will likely occur if something is not done immediately.
Effective treatment, however, can not occur until the parasite has left the fish. Using hyposalinity as a treatment, the parasite is killed when the protozoa is in the tank, on a hard surface, during what would be the reproduction stage. The hypo-saline conditions kill the parasite at the tomont stage of the life cycle. In a copper treatment, the medication targets the infectious, free-swimming theront.
Why Should I Care About When the ICH can be killed, as long as it is Killed?
Because there is a common misconception that the protozoa can be killed as soon as treatment begins, and this is not the case. The hobbyist needs to understand the stages of this particular “bug” in order to eradicate it.
Also, always keep in mind that ich is an organism, its lifecycle is not going to be like clockwork in the sense that all parasites in your tank are going to be at the exact same stage simultaneously.
Most Effective Treatment
HYPOSALINITY is Osmotic Shock Therapy [OST]. O.S.T. places the infectors [ich] in an environment in which they cannot hope to survive while the host, (or infected fish) can. This remedy WILL NOT work in reef systems or invert tanks as it incorporates lowering the specific gravity of the entire aquarium to 1.009 SG or to 14-16ppt [parts per trillion] salinity---this SG/salinity being too low for inverts, LR or LS. Marine invertebrates have the same osmotic concentration as the surrounding water and if placed in hyposaline conditions they will likely die of osmotic shock. Likewise, this procedure should not be used on sharks/rays, only boney fish. The procedure, can, however, work very well in strictly fish-only set ups.

 

[michaeltx]

The method of lowering salinity/SG is simple: Over the course of 48-hrs, salt water in the tank is replaced with fresh RO or DI water in several, but small increments until a SG of 1.009/salinity 14-16 ppt is achieved. Maintain pH, as pH tends to lower in hypo-saline water; you need to maintain a pH which is safe for marine fish and consistent with the levels in the display/hospital tank. The best instruments to use for measuring specific gravity are refractometers or high-quality, lab-grade glass hydrometers. The reason these instruments are recommended is because of their precision and the need to be very precise in attaining therapeutic SG/salinity for the procedure. Never use plastic sing arm type hydrometers. They are basically useless for this procedure, and, really, they are so inaccurate that they should not even be used for routine salt water assessment either. As to the beneficial microbes you rely upon to provide natural filtration in your aquaria/QT, NOT TO WORRY! The bacteria colony will survive, the fish will be more than fine; Ich, however, will not survive. By lowering the salinity, you will also be lowering the osmotic pressure of the water. The parasites NEED high osmotic pressure to convert saline water into freshwater. All marine animals need freshwater as we do [these parasites are considered marine animals as well, BTW]. They just convert it differently, usually via their tissues. Reduce this necessary pressure and the ich will die. As a higher life form, the fish will do fine with this short-term treatment. Preference for this treatment of ich over copper is based on toxicity. Hyposalinity has no ill effects on fish during or after treatment, whereas copper is a toxin, and could have enduring negative effects on fish even following a successful treatment.
Maintain the 1.009 SG/16-14 ppt salinity in the tank for 3-4 wks AFTER no visible signs of ich are present with your fish. After that time, you can slowly, over the course of several [5-7] days, raise the salinity back to normal levell. Take longer raising the salinity then you did lowering it. If the fish are in a separate treatment tank, leave them there for 5-7 days after returning the salinity to normal levels. If the fish are well after this time, then move them back to the display.
Copper Treatment is highly effective when applied precisely and monitored closely. The drawbacks to copper, however, unlike hyposalinity, is that copper is a toxin---to both parasite, as well as your fish.
In this treatment, the hobbyist will use use [best choice] Cupramine which is manufactured by Seachem. You will also need a compatible copper test kit that will “work with” the copper. If you use Cupramine, then also select Seachem’s copper test kit.
You should always set up a hospital tank, never adding copper directly to your display. At all times, maintain therapeutic copper levels in the hospital, using the copper test kit daily. READ THE LABEL of your medication and follow the directions. Like hyposalinity, copper treatment requires precision. Not enough copper, and the treatment is ineffective. Too much copper, and the treatment could be lethal to your fish. Take care, be attentive.
The treatment course for copper is 3 weeks after you have attained therapeutic levels. Following treatment, you should leave your fish in the hospital tank for an additional week for observation.
What else should I do during treatment?
Continue common sense maintenance practices. That means water changes, water quality tests, etc. In this case, while treating, you will want to perform water changes that match the water in your QT. If your tank is under hyposalinity, then the water you change out, must also be at the same salinity/pH as the water you remove from the tank. Likewise, if you remove copper treated water, then the water you put back into the tank needs to be copper treated as well, at the the appropriate therapeutic level.

 

[brandons]

right, i read that and that's why i decided to do it because I have the stuff I need including the buffer. What I was basically trying to do was setup a baseline as to what they mean by "slowly" because it can be interpretated pretty loosely.

 

[michaeltx]

sorry I mis understood what you were asking.
I would do it the 1 gallon each time this way its slower and less likely to stress the fish more.
I would also soak there food in garlic so it will give them a immune boost during the process.
again sorry for the misunderstanding.
mike

 

[brandons]

thanks, that's the answer I was trying to get all evening. LOL shoulda tried this forum first.

 

[brandons]

I took a gallon out and started putting the DI water in. I'm trying to ease this for him. I put the DI in a container above the fish tank and have it siphoning into the tank. I have a not and have it at a really fast drip so hopefully it'll help him deal with it better. I've had him since yesterday evening and he still seems skittish when I walk to the tank like it scares the ---- out of him. He did, however, eat really well today when I fed him. So that's a plus.

 

[michaeltx]

yeah if hes eaten thats a very good sign!!
Mike

 

[brandons]

the only thing about all this I wish I would have changed is that I would have gotten a bigger QT than a 10gal because I ended up with a Sailfin Tang in there for 3 weeks.
Granted he is only 2.5" in length, it bothers me that he's in there.

 

[michaeltx]

ya but its just a temp thing it wont be a long term housing for him I mean if he was bigger I would worry about it but not the size he is now. I would look at one a bit bigger though as a just in case you might get something with a little more size to it later.
Mike

 

[brandons]

yea, that's probably a good idea. Good I can't afford big fish right now. hahahahaha.
Thanks for all the help. I finished that 1 gallon drip and it ended up taking the water from 1.025 to 1.021, which is more reflective of my calculations for 1.5g. I must have messed my math up. I took a tape rule and measured my tank depth and lenght and tried different figures for height to find out how much space a gallon took up in the tank. It ended up being 19.25x11.xx by 1.25" deep. I measured it out and put a line on the tank in permanent marker at the side glass to use as a reference when to stop siphoning and took that much out and put it back on. I must have messed the math up. In any case I dropped in a small thing of shrimp for him becuase I'm trying to feed him twice a day and smaller feedings to avoid detritus build up. He gobbled that down really good so all is going well at this point.
I'll just keep an update in here. I'm probably going to try to accomplish it in two days, as recommended, with the one gallon water changes. I'll add another water change in the afternoon and also one before I go to work to space them out more evenly.
But on the math is this how I would do it:
9 gallons at 1.025sg and 1 gallon at 1sg. So the math would come out as
9 Gallons at Original (9*1.025) + 1 Gallon DI (1.000) = Average Specific Gravity
So (9*1.025+1)/10=1.0225