I am going to try this question again.

salty rick

Member
Maybe I'll get a response this time.
Alk: 13dKH
CA: 460
PH: 7.7
I can't get the PH up to the 8.3 range. When I use Sechem Marine Buffer it raises my ALK but not my PH. The bottle says "Safely raises and maintains PH to 8.3). I have used almost a whole bottle of the stuff over a two week period. I have done water changes to lower the ALK to a better level but I still was not able to get the PH up to 8.3 and the ALK webt back up from the Seachem Marine Buffer. I use Salfert test kits that I recently purchased a month ago.
Any suggestions to get the PH up would be appreciated.
 

logan15

Active Member
I had the same problem till I used kents dkh buffer that came in a kit with ammonia detox and essential elements.Try it out brought mine from 7.9 to 8.3 in about 3 days and didnt affect my alk
Hope this helps,
Logan
 

goldrush

Member
You say you are already using a buffer so I'll ask 2 questions. What is the PH of the water you are using for changes? Is everything in you tank happy and healthy? You may want to have your PH checked elsewhere. It may not be 7.7.
 

brooklyn johnny

Active Member
Before I start... DON'T ADD ANY MORE BUFFER!! This problem is much more common than many people would think... I have saved a link to an article that will definately help you regarding the whole ph/calcium/alkalinity mystery...
http://sps.reefkeepers.org/Alkalinity.html
Many reefers have a common misconception regarding dkh buffer, mostly because of the manufacturer's labels. Without getting involved in the chemistry, dkh buffer raises your alkalinity, which will raise your pH on a temporary basis. This meaning that the dkh buffer will bring your alkalinity to a safe level, which will aid in maintaining the pH levels overnight. If you have a very low dkh, say below 7 dkh, the buffer will raise that, which will indirectly aid in sustaining your pH when there is no photosynthesis going on.
However, when your alkalinity gets too high, say above 12 (this is a debatable range I realize, but I aim for 8 to 10 dkh), your pH fluctuates less and less, gradually lowering, and by adding more buffer you are raising the alk, which will lower the calcium and eventually the pH also.
One point I should mention is that it is very typical for pH to fluctuate up to .3 or even .4 in some healthy reefs, with the time right before the lights come on being the highest, and a few hours before the lights shut off being the lowest. Those with digital pH monitors can attest to that.
Beyond the pH monitor, what also helped me when I originally had this problem was using kalkwasser, and dripping overnight, which has the effect of slowing wanting to raise your pH overnight, cancelled out by the tendency of your tank's pH to LOWER at night. This results in both your calcium and alkalinity being maintained, and your pH staying somewhat stable through a 24 hour period. This is getting sort of complicated, and may be a lot to take in, but we can go back and forth if you have further questions.
First things first. Before you do anything. I ALWAYS recommend having your water tested at first by a second source AND second tester. In case you follow the steps wrong on a test kit, if you replace a test kit, yet still are going about the procedures wrong, you'll get faulty readings. Particularly on the calcium test, which is the most complicated with the most things that can go wrong. Find out exactly what your readings are from this source and compare. ALSO, test your pH in the morning and at night and list those readings. I am such a fan of pH monitors for this reason, so you avoid the "Is that 7.8 or 8.0... or maybe 8.2?" The difference between 7.8 and 8.0, and 8.0 and 8.2 is pretty huge... but not on that damn color scale!
Post the readings again after you do this...
7.7 is too low even at the low end in my opinion. If you want to go the additive route as opposed to the kalk route, you will need CALCIUM CHLORIDE on top of your buffer. If you use any of the two part solutions, usually part 1 is your dkh buffer and part 2 is your calcium chloride.
Lowering your dkh is the first thing to do. Do this by continuing with normal water changes, and not adding any additional buffer. With this alone, it HAS to lower. After that you need to get in a regimen of dosing calcium chloride AND your buffer, with different combinations being required for different tanks. WHATEVER YOU DO, DO IT GRADUALLY.
Lastly, I have a feeling your calcium levels are actually lower than 460, unless you've been adding calcium chloride... before I go on I'll wait for more feedback...
 

foulbrew

Member
If I remember correctly, Alkalinity is a measure of the amount of acid it takes to nutralize or lower the pH. pH being the measure of acidity. So, again if I remember my basics, there is a direct relationship between alkalinity and pH. Everything else being equal, if your Alkalinity is good the your pH should be good.
Ofcourse, as we all know, theory and practice are two different things. If your tests are accurate, it will be very difficult to add anything that would affect these two differently, leaving you in a position where I think you'll need to find the cause of the disparity. I believe I read that high CO2 in the water column can cause this... keep in mind that my memory is long past it's prime.
Do you use a protien skimmer?
 
PLEASE!!!!!
Before you add ANYTHING else to your tank, do yourself a BIG favor and do a search for an excellent dissertation written by Broomer5 on this very subject! It is right here on this BB and is at your fingertips if you use the search feature at the top of your screen. He is well versed on this subject and simply reading the article he wrote will increase your knowledge by light years. It probably isn't JUST a PH problem as you will learn from reading his post.
Always utilize the search feature on this BB. There are many super posts written by past and present members that cover almost every problem we may encounter.
Maybe Broomer will repost the thread in question. Seems there have been more than a few posts on this issue lately.
 

jonthefb

Active Member
brooklyn johnny has nailed it right on the head....you need to first stop addign buffer and then begin addign some sort lf calcium supplement to the tank....once all the levels are balanced, you should also see a balanced pH as well!
good luck
jon
 

salty rick

Member
Up until I bought the Salifert PH test kit I was using the one by Tetra. It constantly read 8.0. I just now tested the PH using the Salifert test kit, which was after the lights went out, and it still reads 7.7. The Tetra kit still reads 8.0.
The CA reading, using the Salifert Kit, is 460. I use Kent Turbo Calcium to maintain my calcium levels.
I will mention that I followed the directions on the testkits to the letter so I am confident that I am following the steps correctly. As far as testing the water at the LFS, they use the Tetra Test kits like the one I have. I can have them test it anyway to see if they get the same readings.
I'll discontinue the use of the buffer,
Continue water changes to lower the ALK
Maintian the CA levels using the Kent Turbo Calcium
Research the subject more on the BB
I'll test the PH in the morning to see if the levels have changed.
Thanks for all your help.
PS: I do have a skimmer.
 
S

sebae0

Guest
yes plz do a search on broomer5 thread about the relationship between alk, cal, and ph it will do a lot of good.
secondly, the buffer you are using is a calcium bicarbornate, which is the same as your alk supplement. what this will do is make calcium carbornate, do you have a white precipitation in the water? if so the best advise i can give is to stop dosing and do a good water change to get levels back to normal. after that i cant help you good luck though.
 

fshhub

Active Member
the very first thing that I would do, is get anohter opinion
have it tested by someone else, using a different kit
ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE GETTING 2 DIFFERENT READINGS, one of them has to be wrong. At least one. this could be either the kit(s) have a problem or that something is being done wrong.
One common mistake is that often many people will take a short cut and use their thumb instead of the top to shake. Our body oils are acidic, which would give that lil vial just enough to lower the ph reading a little bit. Old kits(coudl have been on the shelf a while too). Not turnigng the dropper bottle upside down all the way could give you a different measurement. We MUST invert the dropper completely, before counting out drops, STRAIGHT UP AND DOWN.
Those are just 3 simple little things that can corrupt a tester just enough to be a headache, taht most people do not realize. and would seem to be ok, if we did not know better. there are definitely other reasons, kits can read off or incorrectly, these are merely examples.
It could be fine Alk and calcium being where they are, I would assume taht the ph should be easy to keep in line. Yes the ph does drop some overnite, but not to the point where 7.7 would be considered safe to me.
hth
 

joerdie

Member
so far i have been watching this thread and am interested in reading the broomer5 thread. i ran a search but i coulnt find it. any other key words to help me find it.
 

ophiura

Active Member
I agree on getting another pH reading, or buying another kit. The tetra kit, IMO, is too inaccurate for saltwater, if it is the drop one (the range is pretty broad). Test reagents can be bad, right out of the box. It is unfortunate, but it happens, and so I would get another reading using a third test kit.
 

broomer5

Active Member
Salty Rick
Here's an idea.
You may find that by continuing with water changes - over the next few weeks - will lower both your calcium and alkalinity.
It may be possible that you're overdosing your tankwater - in relation to the creatures you are keeping.
I see mostly low calcium demanding corals in your signature.
I would imagine that if you do a series of water changes with newly mixed but aerated overnight saltwater ~ that your pH will climb right back up to around 8.2 without the need for buffers.
Test your new saltwater batch too - the next day after you mix it up. Should be around pH 8.2, with calcium at 370 and alk near 3.0 or so.
I would cease all additives - and just do water changes for now.
I see no reason to try and maintain a calcium level of 460, and I think your alkalinity is too high as well ( my opinion ) for your coral load.
Turbo Calcium is straight calcium chloride - it may not be necessary as a "maintenance" supplement.
Here's some numbers you might want to consider aiming for.
pH 8.2
Calcium 420 ppm
Alkalinity 8.4 dkH ( 3.0 meq/L )
And as mentioned ~ before doing anything ~ test the water for pH with another kit if possible.
Just suggestions ;)
 

salty rick

Member
After a series of water changes over the last few weeks I have gotten the ALK down to 9 dKH and the CA is steady at 450 ppm. My PH is still low:
Salifert Test: 7.7
Aquarium Pharm Test: 8.0
Tetra Test: 8.0
LFS (Tetra Test): 8.0
After I mix my water and aeriate overnight and test before putting in the tank the ALK is around 6 dKH and the PH around 7.7 to 8.0. (I use KENT Marine Salt and Instant Ocean). I use a tapwater filter to filter the water. The ALK is around 3dKH before I mix in the salt.
I haven't added any additives since I last posted on this one. Any suggestions on how to raise the PH without raising the ALK?
 

wamp

Active Member
Have you tested the water your using for your changes before adding salt to see what it is?
 

salty rick

Member
Yes. Before the salt the ALK is 3 dKh and the PH is around 7.5 to 7.7 depending onthe test. When I add the salt and aeriate the PH doesn't move but the ALK goes to around 6 dKH.
 

reefnut

Active Member
Don't want to step on your message but I'm having a similar problem. My new salfert kits just got here and this is what I'm getting.
PH 7.8
Nitrates 10
Mag 1280
Calcium 300
dKH 9.6
Alk 3.43 meg/L
I use Kent Marine Superbuffer but can not seem to bring my PH up. I know the mag and calcium is also low, could this be the reason the PH is also low?
I added calcium and mag about 30min ago so I'm going to retest in a little while.
 
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