I am thinking of going filterless...bad idea?

[kyarnkid]

I have had my 55 tank up for about 6 months. I run 2 filters(Sandman and Emp400) and a Prizm skimmer all Hang on the Back. I have been showing alot of nitrates in the past 3 months and i think it is because of my filters. I never showed trates until after 3 months.
I have come to this conclusion, because I called a friend of mine that has alot of experience in reef and fish tanks. He told me that filters can become Nitrate factories and he said that on all his tanks he doesn't run filters. He told me the only time he runs a filter is when sediment builds up and then he runs a canister filter for about a month with just the floss in it( I did not understand what he meant about the floss, hoping someone would explain).
He told me that this could be the reason my water changes do not work. He also told me to position one of my powerheads toward the surface of the water. Why did do I have to do that? The water I use is tested and is good, so this explains it. I would like input from people that do this approach. Would it be ok for me to do this and when sediment builds up can I just run the Emp, with new filter medis in it, for about a month and then stop?
Please tell me anything that I am missing and Fshhub I need to talk to you about this.

 

[kyarnkid]

I only have 15 lbs of live rock. and about 40 lbs dead that I have had in my tank for about 6 months. Can I go with this process even with that little of live rock?

 

[kyarnkid]

Anthem, for your information I have had a DSB for the life of my tank. Don;t you think it is kind of odd that I had no nitrates till 3 months after i had my tank?
Also anthem, I appreciate you trying to help, but you have answred nothing about my post. You being insulting by your negativity

 

[beth]

We're missing a bit of info here to be helpful. First off, what is in your filters in the way of media and how often do you clean the filters? More importantly, what are you using as a substrate? And how deep is it?
Additionally, skimmers are not nitrate factories unless you have some sort of media in them [like the bakpac skimmer].
Nitrates are the result of your system's, as a whole, inability to complete the nitrogen cycle. This is commonly due to the type of filters you use [media based] as well as the type of substrate you choose.
I run a biological filtration reef tank which depends totally on live rock and live sand for "filtration". I also use a skimmer, but, I don't necessarily have to. My tank is not dependent upon the skimmer. I set this tank up in Dec and it never cycled. I have never had ammonia, nitrite or nitrates.

 

[kris]

How often are you cleaning the media in those filters or replacing cartridges? these types do require maintenance. I also agree that filterless (manmade filters anyway)is possible, but not without lots more lr and a dsb and and a VERY modestly stocked tank. I really don't think it's a good idea right now, cause like he said you're tank is very young yet. That's just my opinion, but if you're thinking you're nitrates will simply go away with the filters I highly doubt it.
Running a canister with floss only is simply usung it as a mechanical filter instead of a biological one where other media is used in conjunction with the floss/foam.
Powerheads are generally at or pointed at the surface for oxygenation purposes.
So there you have it--different people different answers. Don't you love this hobby?
Also have you considered other causes of nitrates??
If you choose to remove them at least leave the skimmer and I would monitor all levels daily.
Good Luck

 

[kyarnkid]

Beth, I have a dsb about 4 inches tall. I was not saying that skimmers were Nitrate factories, I was saying filters were. (just going on what I was told) I use the standard filter media that comes with the sandman and the emp 400 and I put new filter media in every month.
I have never cleaned either filter. By that I mean I have never taken them off and clean them out and then put them back on. Do I need to do that and how often?
Thanks

 

[mr . salty]

The powerhead at the top is a good idea.Every tank should have this.It really does two things,,,#1,it airates the water if you have it set properly,so it causes surface aggitation or ripples..And #2,keeps dissolved proiens from causing a film on the water's surface.This film,or "oil slick" can also affect the tanks ability to absorb oxegen at the surface.The powerhead will keep this stuff suspended in the water so your filtersystem(whatever it is) will clean it up.....Floss is that white stringy stuff that kinda looks like cotton.Or maybe like the fake spiderweb stuff you use at holloween..He is using this as a polishing/mechanical filter...

 

[beth]

You still didn't say what was in those filters? Media? Sponge? What?
What type of sand do you have, grain sizes?
what do you have in your tank in the way of organisms?

 

[kyarnkid]

Is media the one that is filled with charcoal, that is what the standard emp 400 cartridages are and if so that is what I have
I bouth 45 lbs of live sand and 60 of dry all were reef agronite sand. However I look like I have bigger grains of snad that I should have. They are about the size of a pin head in some places.
By organisms I have about 3 hermit crabs left and I have about 15 nassirius snails 1 peppermint shrimp. ( I had more inverts, but I think my high trates got them). I got two True percs, 2 yellow tail damsels( had them for 4 months and a half) and I got an algae blenny. All the fish seem fine

 

[kyarnkid]

Well anthem,
How do I correct my nitrate problem for my tank. I don't think I have overstocked it? Do I just need to do periodic water changes. Is water changes something I need to be doing every 2 weeks anway?

 

[beth]

Give us your nitrate level. I think you have the workings of a good DSB, but you will need to empty out and clean up those filters.
Yes, media are things like carbon or ceramic pieces that commonly go in these type of filters. The filter media becomes a nitrate factory...also filter pads that are not changed out frequently. And what I mean by frequently is every wk. So, since you have never changed any of these things out, you can see why you are havintg a nitrate problem at this point.
Ed, I think he would like to get rid of the nitrates, and, in a desparate attempt to do this, he is exploring causes for the nitrates [mechancial/biological filters] to begin with and is also trying to get info on what he can do get rid of the nitrates [filterless--meaning no mechanical filtration as a solution to the nitrate problem].
You are on the right track with your exploration of this problem. What are your nitrates?

 

[kyarnkid]

Beth and Anthem,
I just did a test using Aquarium Pharmeucuticals and It looks like the test is closest to the bottom which is 160!!
Ok you all have my undivided attention how do I correct this? I am goin to do little water changes about 4 to 5 gallons every week and I need to know how to clean out my filters(step by step please)
I am going to do a water change

 

[hunterdaddy]

I run with no filters (man made). I have about 40 lbs LR and a protien skimmer. Someone else said (beth I think) they run the same way. Works nice less stuff to mess with.

 

[saltwaterdave]

I always thought if U changed out the media in a mechanical filter that it would upset the biological balance..and U would or possibilly be starting a cycle all over again.Now I know that the lr and dsb supply a biological filter..but his aquarium is very young and possibilly could he have over loaded it from the beginning? and did'nt let the aquaruim run it's course? I have 2 mechanical filters on mine (basically due to a lack of funds and not being able to afford anything better at this time) but the reason I have 2 is so I can change the media in 1 filter at a time therefore not messing up the balance of the aquarium....Now why would I or anyone else need to change the media on a weekly basis? I hope I did'nt get off track here...maybe I will go back and re read the thread again.... <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />

 

[bbreaux1]

hey karyn you have about the same set up as me i have about a 55 gal w/ a 4 inch sand bed with an emporer 400 and a prizm skimmer and i have a few large pieces of tufa rock no live rock and my tanks alittle over three months old. another thing thatll cause nitrates to rise is over feeding. i just have two clowns in my tank right now, a brittle start a few hermits and snails so i dont feed much at all. but for the emporer i just turn the power off take out the filter pads thats the big square ones and wash them out under the nozzle in my bath tub youd be amazed at the amount of trash that comes out and i do this about ever week or everyother week whenever i think about it. just be sure not to do this with the circular ones that spin because those are your biological filtration and dont need to be cleaned.

 

[beth]

bb says, you’d be amazed at the amount of trash that comes out and i do this about ever week... Now if bb does this every week and is getting all that "trash" out of his filter, just imagine what the status of your filter is, since you haven't done any cleaning since startup. Nitrate Factory. Or, in your case, Nitrate Meltdown.
Lets back track to your sand bed. Is it stratified? If you look at the DSB, you should see distinctive layers. Larger sand grains on the top and smaller on the bottom. If so, this good.
You have few organism in your tank right now, so I don't really think you have reason to worry about what I'm going to suggest. Remove all pads and media from your filter and let them run on their own. Get 2 powerheads and place them toward the bottom of your tank facing each other on opposite sides of the tank. Continue running the prizm. Instead of spending any more $$$ on fish, inverts, spend your $$$ on live rock...one piece at a time if that is all you can get. You say you have "dead rock"? What does that mean?
Live rock and sand will be your filters. The filterless system you were referring to. What is your calcium levels and lighting? What type tank are you trying to achieve? Reef or FOWLR?
If you work on establishing the foundation of your system with live rock and developing your sand bed, once it has stabilized and you go down to little or no nitrates, you can make some other decisions about filtration modes.

 

[kyarnkid]

I have only done two water changes in the history of my tank. I thought I would mess up the bio load if I did them too often. I have answred what I have in there, I have 2 percs, I have one algae blenny, I have 2 yellow tail damsels, I have 3 hermits, I peppermint, and I have about nassirus snails and thats it. I feed them twice a day and I feed them frozen brine.

 

[kyarnkid]

Ok Beth,
I wouldn't say that my sand bed is sratified, but there are more bigger pieces of sand on the top than there used to be. By "dead rock" I mean old rock that used to be live. I mixed it with the live rock hoping it would turn back into live rock. I want a FOWLR, but I want to have some corals mainly soft.
Ok so I let my emp 400 run with NO media or pads? Why? I mean doesn't the just just come right back in? Why do I place my powerheads near the bottom of the tank? Do I need to remove the emp 400 and clean all of it out with Hot water?
I removed the Sandman, it was crappy anyway.

 

[kyarnkid]

I don;t understand what you mean by overtaxing my sandbed?

 

[krusk]

Beth-
kyarnkid meant "dead rock" is "lace rock" which could be found in any LFS they use this rock in fresh water cichlic
or that's how I understand he meant "dead rock"
kyarnkid- you feed your fish twice a day, how much? like about 1/8 of the cube?
there are serveral ways to battle nitrate
all of the methods mention above will help to reduce nitrate
try to cut down your feeding will also help you battling nitrate, let's say 50% cut.