darthtang aw
Active Member
Why is it that no matter what the tax rate is, our tax revenue always remains between 18 to 20 percent to gdp? Someone explain this.
i dont understand how this can be possible......
- Thread starter darthtang aw
- Start date
slice
Active Member
Natural Law/Human Nature.
Increasing the tax rate on an activity tends to stifle that activity.
Lowering the tax rate on an activity tends to promote that activity.
Raising tax revenue means increasing the number of taxpayers/increasing the size of the pie (GDP).
The natural balance seems to be 18-20% GDP.
Funny how much of the political debate on dealing with the deficit is about raising tax rates, instead of the
meaningful component of increasing tax revenue. Political demagoguery instead of problem solving.
Frankly, I believe those 47-49% of folks that pay no federal taxes should start paying, even if just a little.
Put their skin in the game. I think that would be fair.
Attitudes would change quickly, I believe.
-I understand your question was rhetorical; you were pointing out the obvious
Increasing the tax rate on an activity tends to stifle that activity.
Lowering the tax rate on an activity tends to promote that activity.
Raising tax revenue means increasing the number of taxpayers/increasing the size of the pie (GDP).
The natural balance seems to be 18-20% GDP.
Funny how much of the political debate on dealing with the deficit is about raising tax rates, instead of the
meaningful component of increasing tax revenue. Political demagoguery instead of problem solving.
Frankly, I believe those 47-49% of folks that pay no federal taxes should start paying, even if just a little.
Put their skin in the game. I think that would be fair.
Attitudes would change quickly, I believe.
-I understand your question was rhetorical; you were pointing out the obvious
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378420
Natural Law/Human Nature.
Increasing the tax rate on an activity tends to stifle that activity.
Lowering the tax rate on an activity tends to promote that activity.
Raising tax revenue means increasing the number of taxpayers/increasing the size of the pie (GDP).
The natural balance seems to be 18-20% GDP.
Funny how much of the political debate on dealing with the deficit is about raising tax rates, instead of the
meaningful component of increasing tax revenue. Political demagoguery instead of problem solving.
Frankly, I believe those 47-49% of folks that pay no federal taxes should start paying, even if just a little.
Put their skin in the game. I think that would be fair.
Attitudes would change quickly, I believe.
-I understand your question was rhetorical; you were pointing out the obvious
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
Originally Posted by Slice http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378420
Natural Law/Human Nature.
Increasing the tax rate on an activity tends to stifle that activity.
Lowering the tax rate on an activity tends to promote that activity.
Raising tax revenue means increasing the number of taxpayers/increasing the size of the pie (GDP).
The natural balance seems to be 18-20% GDP.
Funny how much of the political debate on dealing with the deficit is about raising tax rates, instead of the
meaningful component of increasing tax revenue. Political demagoguery instead of problem solving.
Frankly, I believe those 47-49% of folks that pay no federal taxes should start paying, even if just a little.
Put their skin in the game. I think that would be fair.
Attitudes would change quickly, I believe.
-I understand your question was rhetorical; you were pointing out the obvious
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378764
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
So how much "extra" taxes did you send the government this year. After all...from your past posts you must fall in the higher brackets......did you kick in a little extra to pay your "fair" share......
Darth (Didn't think so) Tang
P.S. The IRS will let you pay more..........
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378764
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
So how much "extra" taxes did you send the government this year. After all...from your past posts you must fall in the higher brackets......did you kick in a little extra to pay your "fair" share......
Darth (Didn't think so) Tang
P.S. The IRS will let you pay more..........
slice
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378764
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
I generally do not respond to your posts. The circular logic and non sequitur does not lend itself to valid argument. You generally make a point, then refute yourself. The above is a fine example.
I agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378764
The 47% - 49% who "pay no taxes" is a misnomer. Everyone who has taxes deducted from their paycheck, pays taxes. Anyone who's filled out a required W-4 Form when taking a new job, pays taxes. What you're seeing as "zero taxes" are these individual's EFFECTIVE tax rate after they've taken their deductions and tax credits when filing their annual tax returns. Most lower and middle income wage earners pay no taxes because the current tax laws afford them enough Standard Deductions and tax credits that allows them to get a refund equal to the same amount of taxes they paid through payroll deductions through the year. If you want these people to pay their "fair share", get the tax laws changed. Problem is, you'll never get that to fly because the Top 10% wage earners in this country won't allow it. They benefit from the same tax laws these "Zero Taxers" use. Most Top 10% wage earners have tax rates between 28% and 32%. However, after they use their tax loopholes, deductions, and credits, their EFFECTIVE tax rates are 15% - 17%. Just think of the billions of dollars in revenue you'd get if you closed that loophole.
A Flat Tax Sysytem would take care of this, but unfortunately the lower and middle incomers would take a bigger hit than those higher on the food chain. Taking 15% of someone's wages who makes minimum wage is more detrimental to them than to someone who makes a couple million. Take that money away from a millionaire, and they may have to refrain from taking that European vacation, or buying that new Audi 8. Take that same amount from a person making minimum wage, and they may not eat the next day, or have enough money to pay their rent.
I generally do not respond to your posts. The circular logic and non sequitur does not lend itself to valid argument. You generally make a point, then refute yourself. The above is a fine example.
I agree to disagree.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378769
So how much "extra" taxes did you send the government this year. After all...from your past posts you must fall in the higher brackets......did you kick in a little extra to pay your "fair" share......
Darth (Didn't think so) Tang
P.S. The IRS will let you pay more..........
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. Trust me, I paid my "fair share" of taxes. Don't begrudge me simply because I follow the same tax laws as everyone else. You want me to pay more? Change the tax laws.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378769
So how much "extra" taxes did you send the government this year. After all...from your past posts you must fall in the higher brackets......did you kick in a little extra to pay your "fair" share......
Darth (Didn't think so) Tang
P.S. The IRS will let you pay more..........
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. Trust me, I paid my "fair share" of taxes. Don't begrudge me simply because I follow the same tax laws as everyone else. You want me to pay more? Change the tax laws.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378782
I generally do not respond to your posts. The circular logic and non sequitur does not lend itself to valid argument. You generally make a point, then refute yourself. The above is a fine example.
I agree to disagree.
How exactly am I refuting myself? Which part of my statement do you disagree with? What exactly is "Circular" in my logic? What I stated was FACT. Did you pay any taxes this year? Did you get a refund equal to the amount of taxes you put in? Did you get a refund? Guess it depends on how much income you made. Like I said, it's the way the tax laws are written. Why chastise those people for simply following the rules? You think they should do as Darth suggests and go ahead and not take any deductions "for the good of the country"? If you were making minimum wage and barely had enough money to pay your bills, would you turn over any extra income you'd get from a refund back to the government? Sounds a little socialistic to me....
Originally Posted by Slice http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378782
I generally do not respond to your posts. The circular logic and non sequitur does not lend itself to valid argument. You generally make a point, then refute yourself. The above is a fine example.
I agree to disagree.
How exactly am I refuting myself? Which part of my statement do you disagree with? What exactly is "Circular" in my logic? What I stated was FACT. Did you pay any taxes this year? Did you get a refund equal to the amount of taxes you put in? Did you get a refund? Guess it depends on how much income you made. Like I said, it's the way the tax laws are written. Why chastise those people for simply following the rules? You think they should do as Darth suggests and go ahead and not take any deductions "for the good of the country"? If you were making minimum wage and barely had enough money to pay your bills, would you turn over any extra income you'd get from a refund back to the government? Sounds a little socialistic to me....
darthtang aw
Active Member
How exactly am I refuting myself? Which part of my statement do you disagree with? What exactly is "Circular" in my logic? What I stated was FACT. Did you pay any taxes this year? Did you get a refund equal to the amount of taxes you put in? Did you get a refund? Guess it depends on how much income you made. Like I said, it's the way the tax laws are written. Why chastise those people for simply following the rules? You think they should do as Darth suggests and go ahead and not take any deductions "for the good of the country"? If you were making minimum wage and barely had enough money to pay your bills, would you turn over any extra income you'd get from a refund back to the government? Sounds a little socialistic to me....
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. Trust me, I paid my "fair share" of taxes. Don't begrudge me simply because I follow the same tax laws as everyone else. You want me to pay more? Change the tax laws.
I thought I was being clear...guess not. You completely missed the point.
Darth (tinted window) Tang
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378812
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378790
How exactly am I refuting myself? Which part of my statement do you disagree with? What exactly is "Circular" in my logic? What I stated was FACT. Did you pay any taxes this year? Did you get a refund equal to the amount of taxes you put in? Did you get a refund? Guess it depends on how much income you made. Like I said, it's the way the tax laws are written. Why chastise those people for simply following the rules? You think they should do as Darth suggests and go ahead and not take any deductions "for the good of the country"? If you were making minimum wage and barely had enough money to pay your bills, would you turn over any extra income you'd get from a refund back to the government? Sounds a little socialistic to me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378789
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. Trust me, I paid my "fair share" of taxes. Don't begrudge me simply because I follow the same tax laws as everyone else. You want me to pay more? Change the tax laws.
I thought I was being clear...guess not. You completely missed the point.
Darth (tinted window) Tang
I guess I did. Your tinted window is more like Mississippi Mud Water.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378812
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378790
How exactly am I refuting myself? Which part of my statement do you disagree with? What exactly is "Circular" in my logic? What I stated was FACT. Did you pay any taxes this year? Did you get a refund equal to the amount of taxes you put in? Did you get a refund? Guess it depends on how much income you made. Like I said, it's the way the tax laws are written. Why chastise those people for simply following the rules? You think they should do as Darth suggests and go ahead and not take any deductions "for the good of the country"? If you were making minimum wage and barely had enough money to pay your bills, would you turn over any extra income you'd get from a refund back to the government? Sounds a little socialistic to me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378789
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. Trust me, I paid my "fair share" of taxes. Don't begrudge me simply because I follow the same tax laws as everyone else. You want me to pay more? Change the tax laws.
I thought I was being clear...guess not. You completely missed the point.
Darth (tinted window) Tang
I guess I did. Your tinted window is more like Mississippi Mud Water.
bionicarm
Active Member
I'm still trying to figure out your logic how someone pays 'zero taxes'. The way you make it sound, you have half the working population collecting their wages in full without taking any taxes out. Then at the end of the year, they don't bother filing a tax return becuase they don't think they should give their hard-earned money to the government. If that actually happens, then our Federal prison system must be busting at the seams.
S
smartorl
Guest
I haven't read the entire thread.......
What about the people that get back several times what they paid in? Earned income credit alone is what several people I know of depend on. They will work for only until they hit that ceiling, then collect several thousand above what they have paid.
What about the people that get back several times what they paid in? Earned income credit alone is what several people I know of depend on. They will work for only until they hit that ceiling, then collect several thousand above what they have paid.
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartorl http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378976
I haven't read the entire thread.......
What about the people that get back several times what they paid in? Earned income credit alone is what several people I know of depend on. They will work for only until they hit that ceiling, then collect several thousand above what they have paid.
That's part of it. Like I said, if you want every person who has taxes deducted from their wages to pay their fair share, get Congress to change the current tax laws.
Originally Posted by smartorl http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378976
I haven't read the entire thread.......
What about the people that get back several times what they paid in? Earned income credit alone is what several people I know of depend on. They will work for only until they hit that ceiling, then collect several thousand above what they have paid.
That's part of it. Like I said, if you want every person who has taxes deducted from their wages to pay their fair share, get Congress to change the current tax laws.
reefraff
Active Member
The whole idea behind earned income credit is it makes it a better deal to work even a crappy job than to sit on your butt collecting welfare. Good concept but like most government giveaways has been allowed to bloat into an abortion. Between Child Care credits and earned income credit my kid paid in just over 900,00 a couple years ago and got more than 7 grand back. I'm sorry but that just wrong, I don't care if it is my kid. If his lazyass wife didn't think she was too good to work a real job they wouldn't qualify for most of that. He's military so he got a 3 bedroom 2 bath house with most utilities included so his 26K salary turns into 38K when you consider the value of the housing allowance. If he lives off post it's over 1100 a month.
yearofthenick
Active Member
I like turtles!
scsinet
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378831
I'm still trying to figure out your logic how someone pays 'zero taxes'. The way you make it sound, you have half the working population collecting their wages in full without taking any taxes out. Then at the end of the year, they don't bother filing a tax return becuase they don't think they should give their hard-earned money to the government. If that actually happens, then our Federal prison system must be busting at the seams.
It sounds like semantics to me. You guys are both ostensibly talking about the same thing, but in different ways.
That said though, it sounds like you are looking at it from an unusual perspective in order to downplay the often-repeated conserative line of how the bottom XX percent doesn't pay taxes.
How can you claim that they pay taxes when in the end... they really don't? If the amount of money that the government "keeps" at the end of the year is $0, then how is that paying a tax? In the end, to these people the IRS is more like a "forced savings plan" than anything else. Yeah, they may withhold, but at the end of the year, when the books are reconciled, if the total tax owed for the entire year is $0, then they did not pay taxes, it's as simple as that.
During WWII congress starting withholding taxes from payroll. Before that, people paid their taxes all at once. This was a great day for government... by doing this, they effectively obfuscated the true amount of money that a taxpayer is shelling out. Ask most people today, "How much did you pay in taxes last year" and most will tell you "Oh, I owed...." or "Oh, I got a $$$$... refund." They have no idea what they really "paid".
In the end, from your paycheck, those are not tax payments, they are tax withholdings. Payment is what happens when you file.
PS: On a side note... where it the outrage on that? The government is earning interest on all this money they are collecting from the "poor" only to ultimately hand back to them, pocketing the interest...
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3378831
I'm still trying to figure out your logic how someone pays 'zero taxes'. The way you make it sound, you have half the working population collecting their wages in full without taking any taxes out. Then at the end of the year, they don't bother filing a tax return becuase they don't think they should give their hard-earned money to the government. If that actually happens, then our Federal prison system must be busting at the seams.
It sounds like semantics to me. You guys are both ostensibly talking about the same thing, but in different ways.
That said though, it sounds like you are looking at it from an unusual perspective in order to downplay the often-repeated conserative line of how the bottom XX percent doesn't pay taxes.
How can you claim that they pay taxes when in the end... they really don't? If the amount of money that the government "keeps" at the end of the year is $0, then how is that paying a tax? In the end, to these people the IRS is more like a "forced savings plan" than anything else. Yeah, they may withhold, but at the end of the year, when the books are reconciled, if the total tax owed for the entire year is $0, then they did not pay taxes, it's as simple as that.
During WWII congress starting withholding taxes from payroll. Before that, people paid their taxes all at once. This was a great day for government... by doing this, they effectively obfuscated the true amount of money that a taxpayer is shelling out. Ask most people today, "How much did you pay in taxes last year" and most will tell you "Oh, I owed...." or "Oh, I got a $$$$... refund." They have no idea what they really "paid".
In the end, from your paycheck, those are not tax payments, they are tax withholdings. Payment is what happens when you file.
PS: On a side note... where it the outrage on that? The government is earning interest on all this money they are collecting from the "poor" only to ultimately hand back to them, pocketing the interest...
bionicarm
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSInet http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3379255
It sounds like semantics to me. You guys are both ostensibly talking about the same thing, but in different ways.
That said though, it sounds like you are looking at it from an unusual perspective in order to downplay the often-repeated conserative line of how the bottom XX percent doesn't pay taxes.
How can you claim that they pay taxes when in the end... they really don't? If the amount of money that the government "keeps" at the end of the year is $0, then how is that paying a tax? In the end, to these people the IRS is more like a "forced savings plan" than anything else. Yeah, they may withhold, but at the end of the year, when the books are reconciled, if the total tax owed for the entire year is $0, then they did not pay taxes, it's as simple as that.
During WWII congress starting withholding taxes from payroll. Before that, people paid their taxes all at once. This was a great day for government... by doing this, they effectively obfuscated the true amount of money that a taxpayer is shelling out. Ask most people today, "How much did you pay in taxes last year" and most will tell you "Oh, I owed...." or "Oh, I got a $$$$... refund." They have no idea what they really "paid".
In the end, from your paycheck, those are not tax payments, they are tax withholdings. Payment is what happens when you file.
PS: On a side note... where it the outrage on that? The government is earning interest on all this money they are collecting from the "poor" only to ultimately hand back to them, pocketing the interest...
You are absolutely correct SCSI. But that's the result of a convoluted tax system. As you, I do not understand why most perople don't complain about the Feds using their tax dollars as 'free loans' to use in all their pork-filled projects. I try to play the "exemption game" with my wife's income to try and get our 'total tax' as close to zero as possible when it comes to filing our tax returns. It's interesting when you talk to some people, and they brag about this huge tax return they received. It gives them the sense of accomplishment that they "gave the IRS the Big Middle Finger", when in reality they are just screwing themselves.
Originally Posted by SCSInet http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3379255
It sounds like semantics to me. You guys are both ostensibly talking about the same thing, but in different ways.
That said though, it sounds like you are looking at it from an unusual perspective in order to downplay the often-repeated conserative line of how the bottom XX percent doesn't pay taxes.
How can you claim that they pay taxes when in the end... they really don't? If the amount of money that the government "keeps" at the end of the year is $0, then how is that paying a tax? In the end, to these people the IRS is more like a "forced savings plan" than anything else. Yeah, they may withhold, but at the end of the year, when the books are reconciled, if the total tax owed for the entire year is $0, then they did not pay taxes, it's as simple as that.
During WWII congress starting withholding taxes from payroll. Before that, people paid their taxes all at once. This was a great day for government... by doing this, they effectively obfuscated the true amount of money that a taxpayer is shelling out. Ask most people today, "How much did you pay in taxes last year" and most will tell you "Oh, I owed...." or "Oh, I got a $$$$... refund." They have no idea what they really "paid".
In the end, from your paycheck, those are not tax payments, they are tax withholdings. Payment is what happens when you file.
PS: On a side note... where it the outrage on that? The government is earning interest on all this money they are collecting from the "poor" only to ultimately hand back to them, pocketing the interest...
You are absolutely correct SCSI. But that's the result of a convoluted tax system. As you, I do not understand why most perople don't complain about the Feds using their tax dollars as 'free loans' to use in all their pork-filled projects. I try to play the "exemption game" with my wife's income to try and get our 'total tax' as close to zero as possible when it comes to filing our tax returns. It's interesting when you talk to some people, and they brag about this huge tax return they received. It gives them the sense of accomplishment that they "gave the IRS the Big Middle Finger", when in reality they are just screwing themselves.
reefraff
Active Member
Some people are just not disaplined enough to save money so they let the feds do it for them. If they aren't disaplined enough to save it in the first place why bother letting the feds do it for them, they are just going to blow it on something stupid when they get their return anyway.
scsinet
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3379259
Some people are just not disaplined enough to save money so they let the feds do it for them. If they aren't disaplined enough to save it in the first place why bother letting the feds do it for them, they are just going to blow it on something stupid when they get their return anyway.
You are frighteningly (is that a word?) correct. I even know people who intentionally set up much larger than necessary withholdings so that they get a big refund in April... they brag about how it's like a "bonus."
If one really wants to put the screws to the government in the biggest way possible, they'd set up their withholding to be as small as they can get away with, then save the additional money for the year, earning interest on it, then just write the government the check for the principal come tax time, but for - dare I say - MOST people, they just cannot come to terms with writing that huge check.
That's what is so great for the government with the withholding. If that money actually landed in people's pockets throughout the year, then they had to write a check... we'd have no more big government... the revolt would be astounding. Assuming a typical household earning 60K per year, they'd have to write a check for about $15,000 to the government. Every. Single. Year. It's amazing how social engineering like this can have such an impact. Most people have no real grasp on how much they are really paying in taxes. It's not that hard to see... it's right on your W2 every year, but most folks just key those numbers into TurboTax or whatever without really understanding it... but put that money in their pocket then make them pay it all at once... it would be a great day for fiscal responsibility and limited government.
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385299/i-dont-understand-how-this-can-be-possible#post_3379259
Some people are just not disaplined enough to save money so they let the feds do it for them. If they aren't disaplined enough to save it in the first place why bother letting the feds do it for them, they are just going to blow it on something stupid when they get their return anyway.
You are frighteningly (is that a word?) correct. I even know people who intentionally set up much larger than necessary withholdings so that they get a big refund in April... they brag about how it's like a "bonus."
If one really wants to put the screws to the government in the biggest way possible, they'd set up their withholding to be as small as they can get away with, then save the additional money for the year, earning interest on it, then just write the government the check for the principal come tax time, but for - dare I say - MOST people, they just cannot come to terms with writing that huge check.
That's what is so great for the government with the withholding. If that money actually landed in people's pockets throughout the year, then they had to write a check... we'd have no more big government... the revolt would be astounding. Assuming a typical household earning 60K per year, they'd have to write a check for about $15,000 to the government. Every. Single. Year. It's amazing how social engineering like this can have such an impact. Most people have no real grasp on how much they are really paying in taxes. It's not that hard to see... it's right on your W2 every year, but most folks just key those numbers into TurboTax or whatever without really understanding it... but put that money in their pocket then make them pay it all at once... it would be a great day for fiscal responsibility and limited government.