I need help...why are they dying?

[joshs78sleeper]

Well this is my first post. I have recently started a 35 gallon saltwater tank. My first one. It is fish only and I am still in the process of cycling my tank.
My first shot at it, I had 4 damsels. about 2 weeks in, everything was going fine, I checked my levels and it was on track. The PH was 8.2, temp was around 77-78, ammonia was at 0, the nitrite was still up, but like I said I was only two week in so I expected that. Anyways...the next day, I came home and one fish was dead...I didnt have time to check levels and then again the next day I came home and the other fish had all died.
So I got a little discouraged and didnt get any new fish for a week or two. Well the other day I figured id give it another shot. The guys at my LFS said to just put more fish in, I didnt have to do anything even though I had some die before. I bought 6 damsels, 2 real tiny, and the rest medium sized. So the first night, one dissapeared. He was a tiny little guy and there is no trace of him, I guess the meaner ones ate him.
I checked my levels last night, and surprinsingly everything was good...I think like the tank is already cycled. The ph was at 8.0, the ammonia, and nitrite both 0, and the nitrate was at I think 10. I believe that is around what a tank should be at isnt it? Anyways, I had another one die this morning, that other little tiny one. And again, I had one completely dissapear. One was dead on my liverock. But one has vanished again. I dont know what is wrong. I dont know what the hell Im doing wrong. There is one damsel that seems to be a little meanie and attack the other guys, very fisty. Could he be killing the other fish and possibly eating these little guys?
What else do I need to check? How do I know when the tank is cycled fully? Thanks guys for your help.

 

[eeldarb21]

the tank is not cycled, i just cycled my 55 gal very hard beacuse i'm impatient. the tank needs at least 3 weeks to a month..i usally go by time more than just the readings to be sure. I had a lot of damsels die in my cycling tank..it's natural beacuse the levels are very high. My question do you have live rock? this is a good filtration advantage. My tank took about 1 month to cycle fully doesn't really matter on size it's all about the same time to cycle. IMO. You will have some damsels die so don't worry your on the right track just wait for more time to go by....DON'T RUSH ANYTHING in this hobby be patient! When tank is done cycling (in about a month) do a large water change ...i did 30% of my 55 gal. then you will be on your way!

 

[cboyfan2020]

1) just because damsels are hardy doesnt mean the levels involved in a cycle cant kill them. The little ones were probably young and just couldnt take it.
2) Damsels are very aggressive and t is entirely possible that the stress of the cycle plus another damsel harrassing them could have done them in. Your damsel bodies didnt just disappear but they are probably nudged in a crevice somewhere.
3) Where did you get your LR if you have any? Mantis shrimp can hide in the rock and kill your fish. Just another possibilty.

 

[stacyt]

You're getting bad advise from your LFS. You don't need fish to cycle a tank. There are several ways to cycle a tank without fish. The amount of fish you have in the tank is to much. They're probably fighting for territory. Was the LR that you added to the tank cured or uncured? How many lbs. of LR do you have in the tank? I would start by removing all of your fish, and take them back to the LFS.

 

[javatech]

A Simple Approach to Fishless Cycling
So what exactly is fishless cycling? In short, it is a manufactured
reproduction of the nitrogen cycle that would otherwise occur
naturally in a new aquarium in which fish are added. Unfortunately,
this cycle is very stressful for the fish in question though, as both
ammonia and nitrite is very toxic at detectable levels. That's why
alternative methods have been developed, so we can attain the
bacteria needed to keep our fish in a safe, healthy environment
without harming any fish in the process. In this article I will attempt
to explain the process of fishless cycling in a simple,
easy-to-understand fashion that even a brand new hobbyist can
understand.
I will not go into great detail about the nitrogen cycle here, for that
is not the intent of this article. Instead, I will just give you the bare
minimum that you need to know to understand how this process
works. Fish, as well as any other living or once-living thing that can
be found in an aquarium, produce waste in the form of ammonia.
Bacteria forms which converts that ammonia to nitrites. More
bacteria is then formed which converts the nitrites into nitrates,
which is the least toxic product of the nitrogen cycle. Once you
have measurable nitrates and the ammonia and nitrites are gone,
then your cycle is complete. The bacteria responsible for this
process are what we are trying to achieve here. That's the stuff that
will break down the toxins the fish produce and make the water
safe for them to live in.
So, are you still with me so far? Now that we have established what
we are trying to do and why, the next step will be how. There are
many methods of fishless cycling available, but I like to use the
simplest and most direct route available - pure ammonia. You can
find it in most grocery stores or hardware stores, usually with the
cleaning supplies. But make sure whatever brand you choose is
100% pure, clear ammonia with no color or any other additives. If in
doubt, pick the bottle up and shake it up. If it foams or forms any
suds, don't use it. You will also need some water test kits, found in
your local aquarium supply store or many mail order pet supply
companies. Test kits are invaluable in the fishkeeping hobby, and
you will find yourself using them for much more than just the
tracking of your fishless cycle. The three you will need for need for
now are Ammonia (NH4/NH3+), Nitrite (NO2), and Nitrate (NO3).
By now you should have your aquarium filled with water, gravel or
whatever substrate you intend to use, and have your filter up and
running. Your tap water will be best for cycling purposes. If you feel
you need to modify your water to fit the type of fish you want to
keep, there will be plenty of time for that after your cycle is over. If
you have chlorine in your water, you can simply let your water sit
overnight and the chlorine will outgas by itself. But if your water
company also adds chloramines to the water supply, you will have
to remove them yourself. You can do this by boiling your water, and
let it to cool overnight to allow any by-product chlorine to outgas
and to let oxygen back into the water. Or you can add a
dechlorinator that also removes chloramines. It's best to use a
simple one without the extra additives, to avoid any false readings
from your test kits. Also make sure you don't have any
ammonia-removing materials in your filter, such as zeolite,
ammo-rocks, or nitra-zorb. These will seriously deter, or possibly
stop, your cycle. If you have a heater, it would also help to set it to
around 86 degrees F. The warmer temperature increases the
metabolism of the bacteria you want to create, thereby speeding up
the cycle of your tank.
If you have access to another disease-free established tank, this
would be a good time to add some seeded material to jump-start
your cycle. See if you can obtain a cup or two of the top inch of
gravel from that tank, as this is where the majority of the bacterial
colony lives, next to the filter material. You can either add it directly
to the top of your new gravel, or in a filter bag or clean stocking if
the color doesn't match and you want to remove it later. If you have
room in your filter, you can put the bag of established gravel right in
there. Even better than old gravel would be any old established filter
media, such as a cartridge, floss, or foam. You can even add filter
squeezings from an established filter directly to your new one. Or
clean out all that gunk at the bottom of the established filter's
chamber or impeller, and put this gunk directly into your new filter.
All of these materials contain the good bacteria you are trying to
establish, so the more of it you can get into your new tank, the
faster your cycle will go. In fact, if you can also re-seed the tank
every couple of days as your cycle progresses, that would be
perfect. Just make sure the tank you are borrowing from is
disease-free.
If you don't have access to another tank, see if your local fish store
will let you have some used filter material or squeezings from one of
their disease-free tanks. Sometimes they will even let you have a
small amount of gravel if you ask nicely, or maybe for a small fee.
But don't let them sell you any of the bacteria-in-a-bottle products.
These pre-packaged products that promise to cycle your tank are
nothing other than a placebo, as the bacteria required for
nitrification are aerobic and have no dormant stage, so cannot be
stored in a jar or other container. But if you don't have access to
any other tanks at all, don't worry about it. You're cycle will still be
established even without any seeded material at all.

 

[javatech]

Now you are ready to add the ammonia. This can be as simple or
as complicated as you want it to be. Some people have reported
good results by simply dumping some in the tank water to read
around 10ppm, then waiting till the ammonia and nitrite readings
were back down to 0 and nitrates were showing a positive reading.
While this is certainly going to work, I'm not sure how large a
colony of bacteria will be left at the end of the cycle. By adding
ammonia on a regular basis, you can be assured of a large colony
of bacteria to support a full load of fish at the end.
The amount of ammonia you add initially is going to be by trial and
error. Different brands have different concentrations, so you'll have
to find out for yourself how much you need. But add enough to read
anywhere from 2ppm to 5ppm on your ammonia test kit, and keep
track of that amount. I like to use a child's medicine syringe or
dropper for this. This is the amount you will be adding on a regular
basis, say every day or even two or three days. As bacteria
colonizes and multiplies, it will consume the ammonia and begin to
convert it to nitrite. Be patient as this may take several days, or
even a couple of weeks, for the nitrites to show up. And don't be
alarmed if your ammonia readings go higher than your test kit chart
shows. This is a normal process and it will come back down when
it's ready.
When your nitrites show a reading of around 3-5ppm, cut the
dosage of your ammonia additions in half, but keep adding it at the
same regular intervals. You need to feed the bacteria to ensure that
it keeps growing and multiplying to form a full bacterial bed. If you
stop feeding the bacteria, they may begin to die back to fit the food
source. This nitrite phase is usually the longest part of the cycle.
And again, don't be alarmed if the test readings go off the chart.
More food equals more bacteria.
This phase also often seems to get "stuck". If your nitrites seem to
be off the chart for more than a couple weeks, with your other
readings seeming to be at a standstill also, it might be time to do
something a little different in your routine. Maybe skip a couple
ammonia additions if you are adding every day, or add an extra one
if you are adding every couple days. Or try adding a different
amount, maybe a little less. You could turn up the heat a little, just
don't go over about 90 degrees F, as you don't want to cook your
bacteria. The point is, whatever you are doing routinely, just do it a
little different for a few days to shake things up and get your cycle
rolling again. If all else fails, do a small water change of maybe
20%, but don't touch your gravel or filter.
During this second phase of the cycle is usually when nitrates
begin to appear and ammonia drops back down to 0. But every
tank's cycle seems to run a little bit different due to all sorts of
factors which could include seeded material added, heat, light,
concentrations of ammonia, and I suspect the chemical makeup of
our tap water. So it's not unusual to show readings of all three
components at the same time, or two, or even one at a time.
The thing to watch for is when you have a positive reading of
nitrates, and your ammonia and nitrites have both dropped back
down to 0. If you have achieved this, you are ready for a large water
change. If your nitrates are below 40ppm, do a 50% water change.
If your nitrates are over that amount, do about a 90% water change
to bring them back under control. Then add your original dose of
ammonia, wait 24 hours, and run your tests again. If ammonia and
nitrites are still 0, congratulations - you are finished and ready for
fish. Just don't forget to readjust your temperature to meet the fish
you want to keep, and give the heater enough time to stabilize.
This method of fishless cycling is usually quite a bit faster than
cycling with fish, but it can still seem like forever when you are
looking at an empty tank full of water. With a lot of established
material to start with, it can go as fast as just a couple of days. On
the other hand, with a completely sterile environment to start with,
it can take as long as a couple of months, depending on the
concentration of ammonia, heat, etc. The important thing to
remember here is to relax and be patient. The whole point of this
method is to provide a safe and healthy environment for our fish to
live in. And if you get impatient or nervous because your test
numbers seem to high, just remember the part about being patient.
You're not hurting any fish! And you're certainly not going to hurt a
box full of water with a little ammonia. Besides, a bottle of ammonia
is a lot less expensive than fish, and can cycle a lot more (and
bigger) tanks than just one fish can.
Take this time to research the kind of fish you would like to have.
And if you also want to have live plants, this would be the perfect
time to do a little aquascaping. Plants will consume the nitrates
and help to keep them under control, and provide extra surface area
for nitrifying bacteria. As an added bonus, they will also bring in
bacteria of their own, the same kind you are trying to establish, as
long as you don't let them dry out or rinse them in water containing
chlorine. If you feel you must rinse them before putting them in your
tank, do so in dechlorinated water to protect the bacteria.
So what are you still reading this for? Go get your ammonia and
create that perfect new home for your fish. Remember this is not an
exact science, so don't be afraid to experiment with it to see what
works for you. Relax, be patient, and have fun with it!
Here's wishing you a lifetime of healthy, happy fishkeeping!

 

[dreeves]

Javatech...were you bored?
To cycle your tank without fish...get some shrimp from your grocery store...not the pre-cooked ones...then toss them in.
When they start to decompose...they produce the needed amonia to start the cycle.
There is no time limit on cycling...some tanks are faster...some are slower...each tank is as individual as their owner.
Once your amonia starts to decline...get yourself a few blue or similar (small) hermit crabs..they are good at cleaning stuff off of the bottom...dead fish included.
Be patient...you rush now..you pay later.

 

[javatech]

Cut & paste

 

[dreeves]

I see...that was a ton of typing...