I need some advise on my DSB!!

[tdog7879]

Oki got a DSB..It contains playsand that i got from from homedepot and a thin layer of CC. The sand is silica free,screened,and washed. My sand bed is anywhere from 3-5 inches. I have been told by different people to remove the CC . Some people say to remove all of it. So here are some ?.
If i do remove CC how do i do it?
What if i remove the CC and add some LS?
Or should i just leave it alone!
side note: The tank has been running for 5 months
I have of a dozen snails that dig into the SB. Also a yellowface goby the is always digging

 

[florida joe]

leave it as it is.

 

[tdog7879]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2629571
leave it as it is.
so you think i will be fine... would it be a bad idea to add a little bit of live sand?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by tdog7879
http:///forum/post/2629608
so you think i will be fine... would it be a bad idea to add a little bit of live sand?
no but why do you want to

 

[tdog7879]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2629611
no but why do you want to
not sure just thought it might help with the SB.

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2629571
leave it as it is.
+1; Leave it alone ~ assuming that your CC is under your sand, you will have to disrupt the entire sandbed in order to remove. If the tank has been up and running for 5 months, doing so will no doubt release large amounts of nitrates, as well having a potential to change pH and release some other things into the water as well. IMO, disrupting your sandbed at this point is far more likely to crash your tank than the DSB. Adding some additional small amounts of LS to increase the microfauna will certainly not hurt your tank, but will most probably simply provide a new feeding ground for your yellow goby. If you have a refugium, I would add new LS there, and allow the microfauna to be spread naturally through your tank. I truly think that your stressing too much over this. Relax and enjoy your tank.

 

[scopus tang]

Ok, I just read your other post, you have several issues that you need to address to make your DSB truly functional. As was stated in the previous lthread, you do not have it set up correctly, which is what is creating some of your issues. First, I see that your CC is in fact on top of your sand. Why? Use a fishnet, reach in and gently remove the CC by scraping along the top of the sand ~ get rid of as much of the CC as you can, while disturbing as little of the sandbed as possible. Second, you need to add LS to the areas of the tank in which the DSB is only 3" deep Use real live sand (aquire from your LFS or order online ~ this site sells it), not the prebagged LS. DSB need to 4" or more ~ 3 inches is a depth which will most likely fail to create the anaerobic areas you desire and give you problems. Third, how large is your tank? 12 snails (of unknown type) may or maynot be enough. Make sure that you have nassarius and/or super tongins. Hopefully this helps ~ if you have additional questions or need any additional help, keep posting in this thread, I'll keep and eye on it.

 

[rockman]

The bed should be at least four inches deep.
The sand should be quite fine, sugar-sized, in the range of .05- 2 mm.
The bed should not be disturbed.
Worms and other sand-shifting organisms should be present to stir the bed.
Beds need to be deep enough so that zones are created in the bed. The upper levels have decreasing oxygen tension, and organic compounds are processed by aerobic bacteria. Lower in the bed, oxygen approaches near depletion and bacteria use the oxygen contained in the nitrates, produced at the upper levels, to further degrade organics but using the oxygen from the nitrate molecule. This anoxic zone is where denitrification occurs and is the main reason for having a DSB in the first place. Four inches is the suggested depth, but having slightly less usually doesn’t hurt. Extremely deep beds, on the other had, run the danger of becoming fully anaerobic at their lower levels. That is not an ideal condition and should be avoided. Even at 4-6” there are some anaerobic areas in any sand bed, but those over 10” are more likely to have substantial zones. This invites conditions where sulfates can be reduced to toxic hydrogen sulfide.
One of the necessary conditions for a bed to be successful is that it has a continuous turnover caused by sand-shifting organisms in the bed. This means that sand should be fine enough for these organisms to move about. Very fine sand can actually be moved around by the combined efforts of the bacteria in the bio-film on the sand. The other reason for fine grains is that they provide a far larger surface area than large grains, thereby supporting greater organic loading. Having sugar-fine sand or finer is therefore far better than having something, like crushed coral, for the bed.
As I explained above, it is desirable to have zones of decreasing oxygen tension existing in the bed. It takes time for these zones to develop, so we want to keep them intact. Adding large sea cucumbers, large burrowing fish or big starfish, which can all disturb the bed, should be avoided. So should using one of those sand vacuums, so popular for cleaning substrate in a freshwater tank; they should be avoided unless it is just used to clean the very top of the bed.
While it’s not a good idea to have large burrowing creatures in the bed, we do need the tiny ones. Various worms, mini starfish, snails, copepods, burrowing shrimp and tiny sea cucumbers are all welcome members of the sand’s living community. They are very important, and without them the bed may go completely anaerobic in time. If these basic rules are followed, then we can have a bed that is productive over a long period of time. Like everything else in this hobby it does require some maintenance.
Hope this helps

 

[florida joe]

Very informative. Can you please just explain a few things for me as sorry to say I not a very intelligent person. There for I need things simplified. First I read that the sand bed should not be disturbed then I read that we need some turn over of the sand. So in fact if I were to gently stir the sand my self with lets say a wooden skewer it would be beneficial. I read that beds need to be deep enough to create zones. But what if I already have enough live rock for denitrification or I am using a refugium with a algae scrubbing system then can I not go with a shallow sand bed? I would think in this case I do not need any anaerobic bacteria in my DT substraight.
On to the depth of a deep sand bed. A DSB in my limited understanding is a variation on the original Eng’s natural system where the DSB is the primary source of biological filtration. And is typically 6 inches or more. Which means it occupies a significant amount of viewing space in the DT. And this is why most people do not have a true DSB.
A intensive study by Lowrie and Borneman (1998) concluded that deep sand bed filtration alone equals or even exceeds the results achieved with more traditional reef filtration methods employing strong protein skimming Nor has there been any documentation of hydrogen gas being released into the DT with a true deep sand bed.
If we are looking at the substraight in a totally scientific way, crashed coral is by far a better medium. You state that the fine sand will give you more area for nitrification to take place. This is just not true with crushed coral you have a multifaceted medium which does not pack down like sand you get much greater bacterial growth on CC. The down side is that the area between the CC allows detritus to accumulate thus impacting the bed and it must be cleaned frequently. It also does not allow for sand sifting animals to live with in. but for a medium used solely for nitrification it is far superior then fine sand

 

[turningtim]

I agree Joe! Why do you want that much sand in a DT. There is NO proof that a DSB is any better than any other form of filtration.
You take up so much viewing space and water volume. Its makes no sense at all.
If you want a true DSB. Look into a remote DSB Just a bunch of sand in a bucket! If something goes wrong pull it from the system. No sifting critters needed, no light for algae and true cryptic zone for denitrification.
I honestly just don't understand.......

 

[bang guy]

I'm amazed at how many people set up a DSB with inappropriate sand, don't add any real live sand at all, add inappropriate animals such as sand sifters, and then claim that DSBs don't work. If it's not set up correctly from the start then it's not going to work long term and you would be much better off just using 1/2" of sand.

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by TurningTim http:///forum/post/2630636
I agree Joe! Why do you want that much sand in a DT. There is NO proof that a DSB is any better than any other form of filtration.
You take up so much viewing space and water volume. Its makes no sense at all.
If you want a true DSB. Look into a remote DSB Just a bunch of sand in a bucket! If something goes wrong pull it from the system. No sifting critters needed, no light for algae and true cryptic zone for denitrification.
I honestly just don't understand.......

I disagree Tim, there is actually quite a bit of documented evidence that a properly set up DSB (with or without a plenum) makes an improvement in the nitrate breakdown. If in fact, you could get, the benefits of a DSB without running one, FOWLR tanks would run at 0 nitrates ~ and they don't (Joe knows this very well, hence the massive thread on a DSB in his refugium; https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/316648/plenum-or-insanity/100. Joe is simply doing what he does best, despite his frequent claims to having only half a brain ~ making other people use theirs (I often wish my whole brain was half as sharp as Joe's half brain). As for viewing space and water volume, I guess I fail to understand the issue. In a larger deeper tank, the loss of six inches off the bottom (two or more of which are below the plastic band) is insignicant. In a smaller tank, having a raised sand bed brings everything closer to the light (hummm?!), and if properly set-up, the sand bed alone provides hours of viewing pleasure. Additionally, if properly set-up, the acidic zone in the bottom of your DSB is going to slowly break-down the CC and release carbon into your system (less dosing perhaps?). If you refer back to the original formula for a deep sandbed system, it was a plastic plenum (approx. 2 inches), 2 inches of cc or cc sand, and another 2 inches of fine (not sugar grain) sand (total, 6 inches). In fact the evidence quoted by Sprung claims that a properly set-up DSB system is as effective on its own if not moreso, than a "standard" system, with mechanic filtration and a protein skimmer. The problem arises, as Bangguy stated, when they are set-up or inproperly maintained. Now the real question that must be asked is, is a system with no nitrates at all, really a desirable goal. Recent studies on coralline (which is an algae) and coral growth (of some types of corals) indicates that growth rate and health of these corals is actually improved when some nitrates are present in the system (the ever popular zoanthids happen to be one such).

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2630666
I'm amazed at how many people set up a DSB with inappropriate sand, don't add any real live sand at all, add inappropriate animals such as sand sifters, and then claim that DSBs don't work. If it's not set up correctly from the start then it's not going to work long term and you would be much better off just using 1/2" of sand.
+1; I'm even more amazed by how many people can quote the likelyhood of your tank crashing because of the release of noxious gases as the result of a DSB. One would think that half the saltwater tanks in the world had crashed as a result of a DSB. Goodness, if your going to worry that much, better not put those heaters and powerheads into your tanks, bet more tanks have crashes as a result of equipment failure/malfunction than as a resut of a DSB going south. JMO

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2630636
I agree Joe! Why do you want that much sand in a DT. There is NO proof that a DSB is any better than any other form of filtration.
You take up so much viewing space and water volume. Its makes no sense at all.
If you want a true DSB. Look into a remote DSB Just a bunch of sand in a bucket! If something goes wrong pull it from the system. No sifting critters needed, no light for algae and true cryptic zone for denitrification.
I honestly just don't understand.......

Nor do I my friend

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2630666
I'm amazed at how many people set up a DSB with inappropriate sand, don't add any real live sand at all, add inappropriate animals such as sand sifters, and then claim that DSBs don't work. If it's not set up correctly from the start then it's not going to work long term and you would be much better off just using 1/2" of sand.
Bang my good friend we are Defiantly on the same page on this one

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang http:///forum/post/2630730
I disagree Tim, there is actually quite a bit of documented evidence that a properly set up DSB (with or without a plenum) makes an improvement in the nitrate breakdown. If in fact, you could get, the benefits of a DSB without running one, FOWLR tanks would run at 0 nitrates ~ and they don't (Joe knows this very well, hence the massive thread on a DSB in his refugium; . Joe is simply doing what he does best, despite his frequent claims to having only half a brain ~ making other people use theirs (I often wish my whole brain was half as sharp as Joe's half brain). As for viewing space and water volume, I guess I fail to understand the issue. In a larger deeper tank, the loss of six inches off the bottom (two or more of which are below the plastic band) is insignicant. In a smaller tank, having a raised sand bed brings everything closer to the light (hummm?!), and if properly set-up, the sand bed alone provides hours of viewing pleasure https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/316648/plenum-or-insanity/100. Additionally, if properly set-up, the acidic zone in the bottom of your DSB is going to slowly break-down the CC and release carbon into your system (less dosing perhaps?). If you refer back to the original formula for a deep sandbed system, it was a plastic plenum (approx. 2 inches), 2 inches of cc or cc sand, and another 2 inches of fine (not sugar grain) sand (total, 6 inches). In fact the evidence quoted by Sprung claims that a properly set-up DSB system is as effective on its own if not moreso, than a "standard" system, with mechanic filtration and a protein skimmer. The problem arises, as Bangguy stated, when they are set-up or inproperly maintained. Now the real question that must be asked is, is a system with no nitrates at all, really a desirable goal. Recent studies on coralline (which is an algae) and coral growth (of some types of corals) indicates that growth rate and health of these corals is actually improved when some nitrates are present in the system (the ever popular zoanthids happen to be one such).
Bravo my very good friend I could not have hopped to say it any better. Now let me throw an idea for your school project if you can get funding for a large enough tanks, thinks about this. A 10 inch sand bed tapering down to 2inchs at the other end now you would need to build some kind of inserts which are porous but will hold the sand from leveling out at the high end you can have mangroves and sea grass. Wait what about corals why increase the lighting when you can but the corals in a closer to the light wow but I am highjacking. Randy start a thread on this I am sure people already think I am crazy

 

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2630813
Bravo my very good friend I could not have hopped to say it any better. Now let me throw an idea for your school project if you can get funding for a large enough tanks, thinks about this. A 10 inch sand bed tapering down to 2inchs at the other end now you would need to build some kind of inserts which are porous but will hold the sand from leveling out at the high end you can have mangroves and sea grass. Wait what about corals why increase the lighting when you can but the corals in a closer to the light wow but I am highjacking. Randy start a thread on this I am sure people already think I am crazy

I may do this my friend, but not today ~ not enough hours in the last 72 hours

.

 

[tdog7879]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2630188
Ok, I just read your other post, you have several issues that you need to address to make your DSB truly functional. As was stated in the previous lthread, you do not have it set up correctly, which is what is creating some of your issues. First, I see that your CC is in fact on top of your sand. Why? Use a fishnet, reach in and gently remove the CC by scraping along the top of the sand ~ get rid of as much of the CC as you can, while disturbing as little of the sandbed as possible. Second, you need to add LS to the areas of the tank in which the DSB is only 3" deep Use real live sand (aquire from your LFS or order online ~ this site sells it), not the prebagged LS. DSB need to 4" or more ~ 3 inches is a depth which will most likely fail to create the anaerobic areas you desire and give you problems. Third, how large is your tank? 12 snails (of unknown type) may or maynot be enough. Make sure that you have nassarius and/or super tongins. Hopefully this helps ~ if you have additional questions or need any additional help, keep posting in this thread, I'll keep and eye on it.
I already try to scoop out the CC and it went into the sand bed .Thats why i say there is only a then layer of it. I will try to remove a little bit more but i don't think i can get it all out. The snails i have are 4 olive snails and a dozen nassarius......Whats the best way to add the live sand? .....By the way my tank is 80 tall.

 

[turningtim]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2630730
I disagree Tim, there is actually quite a bit of documented evidence that a properly set up DSB (with or without a plenum) makes an improvement in the nitrate breakdown. If in fact, you could get, the benefits of a DSB without running one, FOWLR tanks would run at 0 nitrates ~ and they don't (Joe knows this very well, hence the massive thread on a DSB in his refugium; https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...=316648&page=6). Joe is simply doing what he does best, despite his frequent claims to having only half a brain ~ making other people use theirs (I often wish my whole brain was half as sharp as Joe's half brain). As for viewing space and water volume, I guess I fail to understand the issue. In a larger deeper tank, the loss of six inches off the bottom (two or more of which are below the plastic band) is insignicant. In a smaller tank, having a raised sand bed brings everything closer to the light (hummm?!), and if properly set-up, the sand bed alone provides hours of viewing pleasure. Additionally, if properly set-up, the acidic zone in the bottom of your DSB is going to slowly break-down the CC and release carbon into your system (less dosing perhaps?). If you refer back to the original formula for a deep sandbed system, it was a plastic plenum (approx. 2 inches), 2 inches of cc or cc sand, and another 2 inches of fine (not sugar grain) sand (total, 6 inches). In fact the evidence quoted by Sprung claims that a properly set-up DSB system is as effective on its own if not moreso, than a "standard" system, with mechanic filtration and a protein skimmer. The problem arises, as Bangguy stated, when they are set-up or inproperly maintained. Now the real question that must be asked is, is a system with no nitrates at all, really a desirable goal. Recent studies on coralline (which is an algae) and coral growth (of some types of corals) indicates that growth rate and health of these corals is actually improved when some nitrates are present in the system (the ever popular zoanthids happen to be one such).
Very well said,

but as with anything I can find the alternate documentation that they don't do anything.
You would be correct in saying FOWLR tanks don't run 0 trates but how many are over stocked, overfed tanks and just have messy eaters? Two completely different things.
But yet some reef tanks do run undetectable trates w/o a DSB. You would think that w/o one all reef tanks would crash? I mean I don't have a fuge or a dsb and have undetectable trates. How can that be?
Now all that being said, I don't doubt that there are benefits to a DSB. I'm going to use a remote on my next tank.
But what I wonder is why an average hobbyist would want something that could possible go wrong in their DT. I mean look at the folks on this thread (besides me I'm a HACK

) you guys are far from an average hobbyists.
And how many times do we read about issues b/c someone just dumped a bunch of sand in the tank.
A 24" tank with 6" bed is 25%. I just think there's to many downsides to put a DSB in a display tank.

JMHO
Tim

 

[rockman]

Joe I have read a lot of your post and replies and i think your a very intelligent man who knows what he's talking about and I respect your opinions But to answer your last question - In a given volume of sand, the usable bacterial surface area rises rapidly as the average particle size decreases. For example, a cubical particle 1 mm on a side has 6 square mm of surface area, while the surface area on a particle that is one eighth (or 0.125) mm on a side is a total of 0.09375 square mm. However, in the volume of 1 cubic mm, there would be 512 of the smaller particles, for a total area of 48 square mm, eight times what is found on the larger cube.
The total sediment surface area in even a small tank is impressive, indeed. In a 45 gallon reef tank, the sand bed averages about 4 inches deep, by 12 inches wide, by 36 inches long, for a total of one cubic ft of sediment. I won't bore you with the calculations, but if the average particle size is one eighth mm, and that is a good average size to have, the total sand surface area is about 14,828 square feet or just slightly over 1/3 of an acre. A LOT of bacteria can live with that amount of space!