I sometimes feel like the church is a wolf in sheeps clothing...

theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
So I'm at church yesterday, and this particular sermon is something along the lines of "All things including money are gifts from God. And because of that, you should first give money to the church, then to help other people, and then yourself." Does that sound noble and good? Sure. But the older I get, the more I feel like the whole thing is some big scam that's there to simply produce power and money for the church itself.
I was thinking to myself, that in my own life, when I do things to help others, there is some chemical reaction in my body that makes me feel good. The same as when I see, or hear someone else do something good. Equally, when I do something wrong or incorrect, I inherently feel guilt, or sorrow, or pain, or whatever the case may be. I honestly don't believe that I feel these things because of what the church has taught me, I really don't. I almost feel like you could have raised me on an island, and there are certain things that as a human, I'm always going to feel. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
Then they got into the whole "the devil sent Jesus into the desert to wander for 40 days and nights, and then the devil said if you really are the son of God then turn these stones into bread." His answer was something along the lines of "I only listen to God, and no one else". Ok, fine. But that sounds like such a cop out. I feel like if I was Jesus, and the Devil comes around and says do this to prove who you are, I probably would have; and then accordingly destroyed his butt simply because I could.
Jesus never seemed to do anything "miraculous" in front of people. It was always he said she said, by his deciples. And when he was in front of people (like the above story) it was always vague answers in ways that you can't say one way or another means anything. I'm not trying to sound like a downer here, I just feel like the older I get, the more this whole story of God and Jesus sounds like a really well put together story that people believed simply because they want something to believe in...
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493787
So I'm at church yesterday, and this particular sermon is something along the lines of "All things including money are gifts from God. And because of that, you should first give money to the church, then to help other people, and then yourself." Does that sound noble and good? Sure. But the older I get, the more I feel like the whole thing is some big scam that's there to simply produce power and money for the church itself.
I was thinking to myself, that in my own life, when I do things to help others, there is some chemical reaction in my body that makes me feel good. The same as when I see, or hear someone else do something good. Equally, when I do something wrong or incorrect, I inherently feel guilt, or sorrow, or pain, or whatever the case may be. I honestly don't believe that I feel these things because of what the church has taught me, I really don't. I almost feel like you could have raised me on an island, and there are certain things that as a human, I'm always going to feel. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
Then they got into the whole "the devil sent Jesus into the desert to wander for 40 days and nights, and then the devil said if you really are the son of God then turn these stones into bread." His answer was something along the lines of "I only listen to God, and no one else". Ok, fine. But that sounds like such a cop out. I feel like if I was Jesus, and the Devil comes around and says do this to prove who you are, I probably would have; and then accordingly destroyed his butt simply because I could.
Jesus never seemed to do anything "miraculous" in front of people. It was always he said she said, by his deciples. And when he was in front of people (like the above story) it was always vague answers in ways that you can't say one way or another means anything. I'm not trying to sound like a downer here, I just feel like the older I get, the more this whole story of God and Jesus sounds like a really well put together story that people believed simply because they want something to believe in...
The CHURCH is into making money....it's big business. If the blind lead the blind...they all fall into the ditch. I totally agree with refraff...time to find a new church.
However, please do not confuse God and the church. When you are real, you don't have to prove anything to anyone. Jesus could have come with a whole host of Angels before all the world. God selected him to born in a manger, and the only ones who heard anything were lowly shepherds.
God is not intersted in quantity, like the mega churches where the numbers are important....the quality of a persons character is what the real worth is. No fancy miracles, blessed are they who believe without seeing.
The books have a very interesting ability to weed out the people and reveal what is in their hearts. The greedy will still be greedy, and the kindhearted will still be kind, the unbeliever will still be full of doubt. What they read in the books, how they interperate them...reveals much. Like a fishermen, all kinds of fish are cought in the net...then he sits down and seperates them...one pile is for the rejects and unworthies, the castaways...the other pile is made up of the keepers.
What you glean from the books, reveal your inner soul. If you don't like what you see in yourself, only you can change it. If a person is so blind they can see nothing... that reveals much as well.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
What denomination is that church? I have frankly never heard that said in any church I ever went to.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493894
What denomination is that church? I have frankly never heard that said in any church I ever went to.
I have heard it said, usually it's the mega churches. The smaller ones are not quite as bad, and the leaders are a bit more sincere when they ask for money. The mega churches say give them the money because they are better at deciding where the charity should go, they have missionaries and pet projects, then as you see the needy around you...help them as much as you can. You don't have to worry about yourself because God will take care of you.
Most times if you attend the church week after week, the request for money seems constant and it gets under your skin. Then there are the traveling evangelists...their whole thing is give me money so I can spread the word...the churches have them as guest speakers. The money that comes in is big business, if every member is giving the 10% as requested...but not all give that kind of money, so the preacher preaches that they should....sometimes every week.
Once a person is offended, everything just feeds the bitterness...time to find a new church, so you can worship with folks you don't have an attitude with. I hate to see the bitterness poison the mind to the point of a person even tossing out the books as offensive....which seems to be where the OP is heading.
I want to also add this one more thing...Yes there are evil people who do take advantage of the gullible and tender hearted....but I think there are also just as many who believe they are doing God's work....so not all are out to take advantage of the people.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493937
I have heard it said, usually it's the mega churches. The smaller ones are not quite as bad, and the leaders are a bit more sincere when they ask for money. The mega churches say give them the money because they are better at deciding where the charity should go, they have missionaries and pet projects, then as you see the needy around you...help them as much as you can. You don't have to worry about yourself because God will take care of you.
Most times if you attend the church week after week, the request for money seems constant and it gets under your skin. Then there are the traveling evangelists...their whole thing is give me money so I can spread the word...the churches have them as guest speakers. The money that comes in is big business, if every member is giving the 10% as requested...but not all give that kind of money, so the preacher preaches that they should....sometimes every week.
Once a person is offended, everything just feeds the bitterness...time to find a new church, so you can worship with folks you don't have an attitude with. I hate to see the bitterness poison the mind to the point of a person even tossing out the books as offensive....which seems to be where the OP is heading.
I want to also add this one more thing...Yes there are evil people who do take advantage of the gullible and tender hearted....but I think there are also just as many who believe they are doing God's work....so not all are out to take advantage of the people.
Practically every church "suggests" to their parishoners to tithe something. Most Catholic churches always pass around the wicker basket after Communion for their little collections. The last time I attended one of their churches, they handed me a form that stated they could either mail me envelopes to use to send in my tithing, or they could also do an automatic withdrawal from my banking account if I wanted to make it easier. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses go as far as having you do "direct deposits" straight from your paycheck into their bank accounts. Therre's a Mormon who works with me that pretty much stated that if he wants to remain in his church, he has to commit to tithing at least 10% of his paycheck to the church. I equate this to someone holding a gun to my head just for the privilege of having faith and believing there's a God. Thanks but no thanks.
 
D

dragonzim

Active Member
The catholic church is the 3rd largest landowner in the world, behind only Queen Elizabeth, who technically owns Great Britain, Canada and Aurtralia and the King of Saudi Arabia. Its no shocker where all that money goes....
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonZim http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493942
The catholic church is the 3rd largest landowner in the world, behind only Queen Elizabeth, who technically owns Great Britain, Canada and Aurtralia and the King of Saudi Arabia. Its no shocker where all that money goes....
I have never even heard of the Catholic church asking for money when they give a Sunday sermon on the radio. I think they must just send a bill. The larger churches take care of the less attended ones so the poor have a fancy place to worship as well. The Catholic concept of a house of worship is the same as King Solomon...Gods house should be decked in gold, so they are very elaborate. The priests have no money, live in the parish (on the church grounds) and don't have families because sex is a sin for them. (I don't even pretend to understand them)...but they do not spend the money on themselves, and give a ton of cash to charities and are forever sending out requests for those charities. If you ever send them a nickle you are on their list forever.
Most of the money beggers are the other denominations.
Our synagogue expects us to pay dues to keep the doors open. The cost to run everything is calculated, then each member pitches in their fair share. Money is charged for the High Holidays for the non-members if they attend. There are lots of folks who only attend on the High Holidays. ( We have a very small synagogue with only 23 members)... many in our area go to the reformed synagogues.
Bottom line.....It costs money to keep the doors open.....gas, electric, payng for the building (tax exempt) and the leader needs to pay his/her bills to live....who spends their time visiting the sick and overseeing the congregation. Some leaders work a full time job besides keeping things running smoothly, it all costs money.
So you can't get mad that you are expected to pay. Now if the leader of the congregation is wearing expensive clothes, driving an expensive car while the members look and live like paupers...something is off.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493946
I have never even heard of the Catholic church asking for money when they give a Sunday sermon. I think they just send a bill. The larger churches take care of the less attended ones so the poor have a fancy place to worship as well. The Catholic concept of a house of worship is the same as King Solomon...Gods house should be decked in gold, so they are very elaborate. The priests have no money, live in the parish (on the church grounds) and don't have families because sex is a sin for them. (I don't even pretend to understand them)...but they do not spend the money on themselves, and give a ton of cash to charities and are forever sending out requests for those charities. If you ever send them a nickle you are on their list forever.
Most of the money beggers are the other denominations.
Our synagogue expects us to pay dues to keep the doors open. The cost to run everything is calculated, then each member pitches in their fair share. Money is charged for the High Holidays for the non-members if they attend. There are lots of folks who only attend on the High Holidays. ( We have a very small synagogue with only 23 members)... many in our area go to the reformed synagogues.
Bottom line.....It costs money to keep the doors open.....gas, electric, payng for the building (tax exempt) and the leader needs to pay his/her bills to live....who spends their time visiting the sick and overseeing the congregation. Some leaders work a full time job besides keeping things running smoothly, it all costs money.
So you can't get mad that you are expected to pay. Now if the leader of the congregation is wearing expensive clothes, driving an expensive car while the members look and live like paupers...something is off.
That pretty much depicts several of these megachurches in San Antonio. You should see Cornerstone Church where the Rev. John Hagee resides. They also have this "ranch reteat" about 40 miles outside of town on a few hundred acres. My wife worked with a nurse who just married his son a couple years ago. Needless to say, she no longer works as a nurse.
I understand that there are bills to pay to keep a House of Worship open and operational. However, the whole premise behind practicing your faith is you should be able to do so without having someone stick their hand out expecting cash as soon as you walk in the door. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest abusers of this system. As you stated, most of those churches rely on the donations of the parishoners, yet you have the Pope lifving in this austentacious castle in his own city with billions of dollars worth of artifacts, art treasures, gold and jewels.
 
D

dragonzim

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493946
I have never even heard of the Catholic church asking for money when they give a Sunday sermon on the radio. I think they must just send a bill. The larger churches take care of the less attended ones so the poor have a fancy place to worship as well. The Catholic concept of a house of worship is the same as King Solomon...Gods house should be decked in gold, so they are very elaborate. The priests have no money, live in the parish (on the church grounds) and don't have families because sex is a sin for them. (I don't even pretend to understand them)...but they do not spend the money on themselves, and give a ton of cash to charities and are forever sending out requests for those charities. If you ever send them a nickle you are on their list forever.
Most of the money beggers are the other denominations.
Our synagogue expects us to pay dues to keep the doors open. The cost to run everything is calculated, then each member pitches in their fair share. Money is charged for the High Holidays for the non-members if they attend. There are lots of folks who only attend on the High Holidays. ( We have a very small synagogue with only 23 members)... many in our area go to the reformed synagogues.
Bottom line.....It costs money to keep the doors open.....gas, electric, payng for the building (tax exempt) and the leader needs to pay his/her bills to live....who spends their time visiting the sick and overseeing the congregation. Some leaders work a full time job besides keeping things running smoothly, it all costs money.
So you can't get mad that you are expected to pay. Now if the leader of the congregation is wearing expensive clothes, driving an expensive car while the members look and live like paupers...something is off.
My father was the president of the congregation for the synagogue that they belonged to so I have a bit of knowledge about what goes into keeping those doors open. Their congregation has about 350 families. Dues range anywhere from $200-$500 a month per family and is based on a few factors from the financial status of the family (if they dont have the extra money, they pay less) to whether you have kids attending religious school or not) The rabbi is a paid employee, and VERY well paid, I might add. When my dad was doing this a few years ago I know they had a contract negotiation with the rabbi and he was being paid somewhere in the area of 150K per year in salary. This did NOT include other money he got under the table. Getting married, give a gift to the rabbi. BarBat Mitzvah, give a gift to the rabbi. From what I've heard, pretty much ALL synagogues operate this way. He was probably taking in another 50K a year in cash, tax free. I remember my father saying that because of all the work he did for the temple that there was going to be a problem if the rabbi accepted his gift when my sister got married. He handed the rabbi an envelope with $500 in it at the wedding and he promptly walked over to my sister and handed the envelope to her without looking in it.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
LOL.....I work for 2 church's...one is Methodist, and one is Baptist
The Methodist church we do a pledge campaign so we can build a budget around it....we do not tell people what they are to tithe though.....The preacher here has a paid for parsonage and a decent salary. We have decent buildings and are looking into re-building (again) a new fellowship center and education building. WE DO NOT look to make money because technically non-profit religious organizations are NOT allowed to. If money is collected for a specific purpose, it MUST be used for that. YES, we pass a collection plate, YES....I DO direct deposits, BUT only for people's convenience.
The Baptist church does not ask for pledges, but they tithe pretty well.....the Preacher gets a nice salary, housing, insurance and expense account....as does the youth minister and childrens minister. They are in the process of building a LARGE Sanctuary....costing over $1,000,000 .....They do also pass a plate around, BUT do not beg....LOL
Sometimes I don't think people realize that even though we are a church, we are also like a business. There are utilities to be paid, we don't get our paper or ink for free...lol....and YES, there are salaries to be paid.....also MUSIC is really expensive HAHA.....NO, we do not pay taxes, but we pay for everything else
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonZim http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493959
My father was the president of the congregation for the synagogue that they belonged to so I have a bit of knowledge about what goes into keeping those doors open. Their congregation has about 350 families. Dues range anywhere from $200-$500 a month per family and is based on a few factors from the financial status of the family (if they dont have the extra money, they pay less) to whether you have kids attending religious school or not) The rabbi is a paid employee, and VERY well paid, I might add. When my dad was doing this a few years ago I know they had a contract negotiation with the rabbi and he was being paid somewhere in the area of 150K per year in salary. This did NOT include other money he got under the table. Getting married, give a gift to the rabbi. BarBat Mitzvah, give a gift to the rabbi. From what I've heard, pretty much ALL synagogues operate this way. He was probably taking in another 50K a year in cash, tax free. I remember my father saying that because of all the work he did for the temple that there was going to be a problem if the rabbi accepted his gift when my sister got married. He handed the rabbi an envelope with $500 in it at the wedding and he promptly walked over to my sister and handed the envelope to her without looking in it.
$200.00 to $500.00 a month??? I pay $864.00 a year in dues, per family. Our rabbi works a full time job as an accountant, I think he is now old enough to retire if he wanted to. I have no idea what he is paid...it certainly isn't 150K. I'm sure gifts for services are paid, but that isn't a set amount because that's up to the people who recieves the services. I don't have much money, and I didn't give our rabbi any extra for my husbands funeral service...it was never mentioned.
Like I said, if you are not happy where you are, and feel ripped off...go someplace else. You don't have to change religions or blame God. I would not be able to afford the synagogue you attend, but I'm very happy with the one I do. I attended a very large sysnagogue in Milwaukee....I went there for 2 years quite often, but never officially joined, I paid for High Holidays when we attended, $100.00 per ticket if memory serves. The only difference in how I was treated, was that I had no vote voice when we chose the board members.
So I repeat myself...if the leader drives a fancy car, and wears expensive clothes, while the members live like paupers....leave because something is off. The greedy are found in every religion...
 
D

dragonzim

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393050/i-sometimes-feel-like-the-church-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing#post_3493964
$200.00 to $500.00 a month??? I pay $864.00 a year in dues, per family. Our rabbi works a full time job as an accountant, I think he is now old enough to retire if he wanted to. I have no idea what he is paid...it certainly isn't 150K. I'm sure gifts for services are paid, but that isn't a set amount because that's up to the people who recieves the services. I don't have much money, and I didn't give our rabbi any extra for my husbands funeral service...it was never mentioned.
This is NY we're talking about, not Illinois for one thing.. Its also a congregation about 15 times larger than the one you go to. I dont belong and no longer attend services either way, so I am not paying anything... Like I said, from what I have heard, this is absolutely the norm around here, and actually quite a bit cheaper than some synagogues in wealthier areas on Long Island.
These are just a few that I found, NOT in the NY area that actually list their dues on their websites...
Fairfax, VA - close to $2200 a year
http://www.tbs-online.org/pages/members-dues-and-fees
Ann Arbor, Michigan - between $400 to $6000 based on income
http://www.hvcn.org/info/bethisrael/membership.php?page=dues
One of the synagogues in a wealthier area of LI states that their dues are $2000 a year for the family plus $3000 paid over 5 years for the building fund. That does not include religious school, which is $875 per child before BarBat Mitzvah and $100 a year after.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Wonder how many of these 47%er's who don't pay income taxes donate money to the church. Do the churches accept the Welfare Cards for payment?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
My sister just went through a wild ride with her church. They had about a dozen attendees. It was a fairly old church. started back in the 1930's I believe. They didn't have a lot of money but did own the property the church sat on as well as a house.
So about 7 years ago they brought in a new Pastor. He has an outside job teaching at a local college. Not sure what they were paying him at the time, like I said they didn't have a lot on money. Fast forward 3 years and they decided to sell their building and property so they could relocate to a more productive area. So they sell out but the pastor starts changing things. Now instead of Sunday services they have a bible study once a week. The pastor names one of his friends assistant pastor at 30K a year and increases his own salary to 72K. Keep in mind even with a building they didn't draw 20 people to Services. At the time he increased his salary he had between 5 and 10 regular attendees of the bible study. The part time pastor moves to another area but still gets his salary because he's available by phone. Then the economy drops off. California real estate goes into the crapper but their doesn't seem to be any movement on buying a new building. The pastor decides it would be a good idea to drop 100K on a set of copies of the scriptures with a display case. The congregation goes along with it thinking it would be a good draw once the get their new building.Next up they decide it would be a good idea to write new bylaws. The congregation votes to have proposals for new bylaws written up. The proposed bylaws would have only allowed the church officers to vote on matters dealing with the church. Of course the church officers are the pastor, his wife, his buddy the 30K a year assistant pastor and the church secretary.
So members of the congregation start getting antsy over buying a new church building. The prices will likely never be better. But the "church officers" decided to open a Coffee House instead. They also decided to end their previous affiliation with the denomination they belonged to and start over as a new church which left some of the old timers troubled. When opposition began to develop the Pastor decided to enforce the provision in the new bylaws that only officers had a vote, despite the fact the congregation never voted to accept the new rules.
To make a long story short after leading this church for 3 years this guy convinces them to sell their land, tries to dissolve their church and start a new one with him and his friends in charge. The congregation got the Denomination involved and it all got lawyerly. The pastor blew through several hundred thousand dollars, got to keep 750K, the copy of the scriptures and a trailer he had custom built to haul them in and part of the stock the church had invested in for his new church. That is in addition to the generous salaries he paid himself and his buddy.
And people wonder why I don't do church.
 
S

siptang

Guest
Op, I have been feeling like this for quite sometime now. Church has become an global corporation and its sad that pastors that think of this as business instead of calling.
 
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