I was apalled!!!!!

[pmauro]

I was just at one of the LFS in my area (not one of the better ones) picking up an algae scraper and so other hardware for tank maintenance.
I took some time to browse through their fish section, just to see how many fish were dying this time. I happened to see a family there with a book on marine fishes going from tank to tank and looking lost. I asked if they had a SW tank and the mother responded yes we got on for our 14 year old son who she then introduced. She went on to say that it was a Christmas present and it had been set up for 4 days and they were ready to add fish. My jaw must have hit the floor, I asked her how she got the tank to cycle and she looked at me like I was speaking in tongues.
To make a long story a little shorter she said the LFS told them to set the tank up mix the SW and let the tank run for 4 days then they could add fish. I explained the ammonia/ Nitrate cycle to them and by now a few other new SW hobbyist stopped to listen in all of whom had been misled by the LFS staff most of whom were just over 16. I showed them all a few of the fish that had ick one a beautiful Emperor Angelfish juvenile. And explained they should never buy a fish from any store unless they have watched it for a few days to ensure it is healthy and have seen it eat. By now one of the young store employees who had been listening spoke up and said it wasn’t ick the fish had a virus like the common cold and in a few days the white specks would fall off the gills and fins and the fish would be well. He offered to show everyone some Fresh water fish with ick and off they went. I stopped the father and mother and told them about this website and told them they didn’t have to believe me, I had been watching the angelfish for 4 days and I was surprised it wasn’t dead already. I asked them to check out this website and to not put any thing in their tank until it had completed the cycle. Needless to say I don’t buy fish there only dry goods because their prices are good.

 

[beth]

Well, eventually the LFS, except the few that actually know and care about what they are doing, will all be out of business. Why anyone would buy hardware at the LFS is beyond me? Unless its an emergency. You can get anything you want at an online store for much, much cheaper, delievered to your door within a wk, and with a no hassle guarantee....including live orders!
I don't buy any dry goods at the store. I still buy some livestock, but, even that is phasing out. I'd probably buy all my live goods online if it wasn't for the shipping limitations. Not everyone can stay home from work waiting for pkg, or receive a pkg at work either. Fedx needs to deliever til 9pm IMO.

 

[jarvis]

ah........its refreshing to see another person saved from the cruel run around antics of LFS. I just wish it happened more often. I cant wait till I get more knowlegeable and get my facts down a little more to go vigilante and tell them.......your dead wrong, when with another customer. I had a bad experience with setting up my tank with advice for LFS. It wasnt too bad. I lost about $200 in crap that is rendered useless, some livestock, and my sanity. I did however find a LFS that doesnt try to sell you anything and the owner lets you pick his brain regardless if your buying anything. He doesn't really push his opinion on what methods you use. But if you ask him about pros and cons of the set up he will tell you truthfully. I have even had asked a question to a worker and they just said "I dont know you might want to come back when Gary is here". I am kinda curious though. I might bring a friend in to see how he would handle someone that just seen a fish, wants it, a must have, ok what do I need?, how many fish can I have? Can a regal tang fit in a 30 gallon? mabee cassually say I think I can afford $3000 off to start. If he answers the questions right to some degree, I have possible found a place to buy fish. Sad to say its about an hour away but well worth the drive. I would rather support a good cause rather than supporting the place that skrewed me and many other.

 

[pmauro]

Sorry Beth, as bad as this place is the owner has a couple of stores and he is smart enough to know the internet is a big competator, so he has truly great prices and yes I could probably find them online alittle cheaper but by the time you add shipping charges, the cost is the same without the 5 day wait for FEDEX or UPS to deliver, that is why he is doing so well, his fish prices are more than online but people are inpulsive and want it now and the price is just good enough to sucker people in. The name of the game in this hobby is money and I have to watch what I spend just like everyone else and if the deal is good then I take advantage, if I dont there will be 200 others who don't have a clue that will take my place. There isn't another place in town where you can get salt for what he charges it is even lower than the chain stores, like I say he is a smart business man and even though we detest how he treats the live stock people like him won't go away. I don't feel bad about taking advantage of great hardware and drygood deals but I will not help him get rid of dying livestock and I tell my friends not to buy their fish there. JMO

 

[entice59]

what horrible people, how can they sleep at night knowing they lie to people just to make a sale

 

[pmauro]

It is called the love of the almighty dollar, to some nothing else matters

 

[gowings]

I am the owner of what you call a LFS and I'd like to just mention some things to try and let all of you out there understand where we come from and maybe bridge the gap between our different sides. Everything I've read from these postings (well, most of it anyway) I have found very helpful and can see a great benefit in the education and source of information you all are trying to provide. It's no different for us. Generally, fish store owners don't intentionally try to deceive people or misrepresent themselves or what they are selling. I do realize that there are some owners out there that are simply interested in making a buck. But we're sometimes forced into it. It's partly your responsibility that these people have become like this. I've read hundreds of times within this site that dry goods are cheaper online, fish are better online, etc. Each time you support an online retailer you pull that same support from the LFS. This takes revenue (and more importantly profits) from us. We are forced to find new and inventive ways to stay in business. We are constantly forced to find ways to decrease costs, increase sales, become more profitable, etc. In the 7 years I've owned my retail store I have seen four of my local competitors close their doors. We certainly don't do this to become rich. I haven't met a collegue yet that drives a nicer car than any of his employees. We do it for the same reason you do...it's our hobby and we love it. Like I said before though, some of us get wrapped up in trying to make a buck because it's our life and it puts food on our table for our kids. And as far as the LFS employees think about this: A good employee that knows everything about the saltwater hobby should make $12-$15 per hour and if we don't pay them that then they work for the local factory or somewhere like that. If we pay them minimum wage or even up to $8 per hour than they'll be gone before we can train them properly. And let's say I find that gem of an employee who knows everything and is working for $15 per hour- all of you are buying your products and fish online so his talents aren't utilized meaning we are not selling product/fish and we have to let the employee go and replace him with a $6 employee who doesn't know the difference between a sick fish and one that's healthy. My point of all of this is that it's not as easy as you think. If you know so much and are really this passionate about it then why aren't you working at the LFS or owning it for that matter. Not all of us are bad. I do the best I can with what you provide me. And if I lose any sleep at night it's not because of what I sold or who I sold it to, it's because I'm trying to figure out how I am going to meet payroll this week and how I am going to stay in business. Soon there won't be any of us LFS left and that will truly be a sad day for the hobby.

 

[pmauro]

How can we change the way these (bad) LFS stores do business, We have no control other than to boycott their stores or at least the fish they sell. I am like a lot of others if I have to pay a little more to get it now 8 out of ten times I will, but if I don't need it now and can find it on line with free shipping That is were I will shop. Unfortunately the LFS near me has lousy fish 6/hr employees and cuts drygoods as close to the bone as he can to get people in the door and those who don't know any better walk out with fish that won't make it a week yet he gives a credit or some other inticement to bring them back, a victious cycle that doesn't end and we all lose in the end, but mostly the creatures that we care for

 

[richard rendos]

After 4 days, the tank salinity should have stabilized and they would be ready to add fish. The tank won't cycle without something in it to start the cycle. I know some people here don't use fish to cycle their tanks, but it is still an effective way to start a tank cycling. I have always cycled with damsels/chromis. Maybe they misunderstood the LFS guy. Maybe he meant to come back for the fish to cycle his tank.

 

[p_apac]

my lfs cracks me up with there high high prices. they have a big tank probably 175-200 with corals in it. everything is 60 bucks, no matter how small or bad shape. they sell it for that. and the bad thing is people buy them, and come back and buy more and more. because everything always dies, and you know what they say the reason for it dieing is, " well its just saltwater, i loose $200 a week in dead fish and other live products". i just laughed and left the store and never went back. i think most lfs are crooks.

 

[jbeck]

People have been cycling tanks with fish for years. Usually damsels or chromis since they are cheap but any hardy/healthy fish would work. There are a million opinions in this hobby and not all are black/white. As for LFS here is a excert cut directly from out largest lfs's webpage about cycling tanks!
How To Cycle The Salt Water Tank
Fish create waste. This waste produces ammonia, which is toxic to the fish at the pH level maintained in the marine tanks. This is why a biological filter is needed. Bacterium grow in the wet-dry filter to break down the ammonia into nitrite. Once this occurs, a second type of bacterium break down the nitrite into nitrate, which is relatively harmless to the fish at low concentrations. To create this cycle, hardy fish (usually inexpensive damsels) are added to the tank to start the ammonia cycle. Triggers, groupers and eels are hardy fish and can be used to cycle the tank. To begin, allow the tank to run for two days, then start adding the starter fish. One inch of fish should be added for every five gallons of water. (Slightly less with eels and triggers.) The other option is to use ammonium chloride rather than fish to create "the cycle" chemically.
Cycling a tank generally takes six to ten weeks (four to six weeks chemically). This may be sped up by adding live rock or live sand to the tank. This does not replace the cycle, it merely speeds it up.
Adding fish - Once the ammonia and nitrite levels are at zero, other fish may be added. A general rule of thumb is a one inch fish per three gallons of water, a two inch fish per five gallons or a four inch fish per ten gallons. Unlike freshwater, most marine fish do well in singles. If you wish to put two or more fish of the same type or fish with similar patterns and colors, add them at the same time or the already established fish will often kill the new fish. This holds especially true with clown fish, damsells, angels and tangs.) Fish should be added in small groups so as not to disrupt the ammonia level. By adding more than one new fish at a time, they will be less likely to be picked on.

 

[jarvis]

wow.....bigmac.....you got burned bigtime! did he even tell you that you needed any type of biological filter?

 

[ophiura]

Wow gowings!
$15 an hour? I have a Master's in Marine invert zoology and started out at an LFS here at $6.50 and hour because I wanted to learn more practical stuff. After a year, I 'retired' at $11 an hour, which was I think as high as I would ever get. You're very generous!
Please, folks, don't assume all LFS are just out to make a buck. Not all owners are driving many new cars.
Also don't necessarily be critical when you see sick fish at an LFS and say they suck and that you will buy everything online. Online suppliers may be cheaper, in part, because they don't have to have employees running around cleaning algae and treating/removing sick fish all the time. You don't necessarily know that the situation an those online warehouses are much better than your local LFS. They might be, and they might not be. I would prefer to see an animal, see it eat, know it has survived for a certain amount of time, but that is me. Some suppliers just have bad info, online or in a physical LFS. I've read/heard both. So don't jump the gun.
What you should do is find good suppliers, online or LFS and stick with them. Give the good one's your business, and remember that they may be more expensive in order to keep the employees or stock that you like (whatever made you decide you liked them).
I am tired of the generalized "all LFS suck and just want to make a buck."

 

[dindi]

As always just someone trying to make the buck, they don't care, i said it before and I'll say it again, just for the paycheck. We all know to be aware and not to trust all LFS but to use our own judgement, not too many people can. They trust them, so sad

 

[newfishliny]

Originally posted by Beth
Well, eventually the LFS, except the few that actually know and care about what they are doing, will all be out of business. Why anyone would buy hardware at the LFS is beyond me? Unless its an emergency. You can get anything you want at an online store for much, much cheaper, delievered to your door within a wk, and with a no hassle guarantee....including live orders!
I don't buy any dry goods at the store. I still buy some livestock, but, even that is phasing out. I'd probably buy all my live goods online if it wasn't for the shipping limitations. Not everyone can stay home from work waiting for pkg, or receive a pkg at work either. Fedx needs to deliever til 9pm IMO.
Beth , I might agree with you that when it comes to pets , fish or what ever we would all like to have honest sales help " knowledge is the key to any business.
BUT: price is not always the key to buying merchandise , you need good help , people that are informed of the products that are being sold . Service is a very important aspect of a business today. IMO if we all bought on line there will not be many stores left in your town , you should support your local stores where you can . Remember you might have a job but if everyone goes on line , your business might go bust.
I try to buy from both good services and fair prices, yesterday I bought a protein skimmer in NYC it had a tag $ 399.00 , but I told the salesman I see it on the net from 299 to 350 . well he did the right thing charged me 349, also there are shipping charges on line.
You should try it at your local lfs if are a good customer then they should at least give you a break. No I do not own a fish store but I do have retail stores .
happy new year
Don LINY

 

[ophiura]

Dindi,
When I worked in an LFS, I certainly wouldn't have sold you the mandarin for a 10g tank, even if we made a few bucks on it (apparently someone, somewhere did make a few bucks on it). You would have had to pass an exam to get it...only one part being a water test.
Not all LFS are out to make a buck by selling anything they can to anyone (and I would ask why online suppliers aren't accused of the same thing?). There are some responsible LFS shops out there, you may just have to look around and make a decision. And you may have to pay more for it. They probably move fewer fish/livestock than the lower quality "get the fish out the door" stores.

 

[dindi]

Ophuirura, I have managed pets stores and I know why people say what they do, you can't stop it, just for a buck, I WILL assure you my mandarin has the best care it will ever get, from someone like you...it's better with me, I've had mine ALL by itself with boat loads of pods which are regularly added to it's little world from my 75 gal...so don't talk unless you really know whats the real thing, we go by what we see here, do not judge my stats as you see it, I know what my responsiblities are here and I do make sure all my animals are well cared for.

 

[dindi]

mmmmy mistreated gobie

 

[leopardshark]

this is sad. i work in a lfs and i have got to say. i am 17 yrs old and i have been into saltwater for 7 yrs. I know a good amount. not everything but a lot. I would say. i started at 5.50 and after 6 months of working there im only at 6. the store owner at where i work one of them has never even owned a tank in his life but his partner has. The one that doesnt know much is still learning by his employees. He has two. me and my manager and she knows more than i do about corals and i know more about fish. I hate to see people downgrade the employees. You should take my job for a day and see how many stupid people you talk to. So believe me you can add fish in after 4 days of the tank being up. You just have to know what your doing. So please dont downgrade the employees especially if they are only 16 or 17 because they probably no more about the hobby than a lot of people out there. You know how many 30 to 60 year old people i teach things to that have been in the hobby before i have been born. I work 6 sometimes 7 days a week and im telling you i learn a lot everysingle day. So if you read a book everyday about fish/corals then yeah you are pretty smart and i say if you dont i bet i know more. I work at a lfs because i really love the hobby. i dont get paid more if i sell anything so i am an honest salesman. at one time i was a consumer of fish and a matter of fact i still am. I dont just shop at my store so i can get a deal i look for the best product.

 

[dindi]

leopardshark, you are right on, I was a manager for a LFS plus other pets, I trusted the fish to another employee and found out jeeze I can't describe, I then managed another store and the "fish" guy was excellent, it just goes to show everyone it is just one person and not the place. This hobby costs enough $ without added false advice. If I can give Ohuirura advice don't judge and do your homework maybe we can all learn, yes I'm still learning. If I learned one thing today then I'm smart