ICH in QT....Need help ASAP

[hogcr8]

I have a 20gal Extra tall QT that has been setup for 6weeks +. The water quality was perfect. Introduced an Emporer on Wed. and noticed he was spending a lot of time in the water flow. After looking at him I noticed he has a bunch of small white dots all over his body. Tested the water and found that my ammo was at .1 and nitrites were at .3, did a 25% water change last night using 25% of that water from my DT. Tested this morning and still have the same results.
Sal. 1.024
Temp. 78.5
Nitrites .3
PH 8.3
Nitrates. 15 - 20
Ammo. .1
Have been feeding Mysis soaked in selcon and fresh garlic and until this morning he has been eating like a champ. I think I can get the water qual under control, I plan on doing a 50% water change from my DT since there are no issues with the water there and just monitor what is going on the the QT.
Here's my question......... I am not completely POSITIVE it is ICH. I would post a pic but the dots are so small you can't see them in a pic.
I have Cupramine and can use it to try and kill this ICH or I can Hypo him. I have read all of the threads and am still a little torn as to which to use. I know that if I use the Cupramine I will need to move the LR out and will have to recycle the tank with new water once it is complete (I'll have to move the LR no matter what I do). But, I have read some stuff on the net that states "The main drawback to using this method (Hypo) verses copper treatment is that hyposalinity is not effective for treating Amlyoodinium infections." I really don't want to stress him any more than what he seems to be now but I could sure use some help........
Thanks in advance.......

 

[hogcr8]

Added Question:
Since it seems that ICH can lay itself to LR and await another host I assume that I can't put it in the sump of my DT since the water flow could take it up into the DT. I would need to set up a seperate system to keep the LR in. Am I correct in my thinking.......

 

[hogcr8]

Update with confusion:
I was able to rid the QT of Ammo and Nitrites are down to .2. I don't want to swap out any more water today but what has me confused is that ALMOST ALL OF THE WHITE DOTS are gone and he is eating again. He was covered this morning. Not sure if I should count my blessings or start a treatment...........
Any suggestions would be very helpful...... I really wanna keep this guy alive.........

 

[nicetry]

The disappearance of the white spots is simply part of the parasite's life cycle. The trophonts have dropped off the fish and will shortly begin reproducing, only to reappear, in most cases worse than before. With angels, I prefer hyposalinity over copper treatments.
I would commence hyposalinity therapy in your QT. Monitor your water parameters carefully as small tanks fluctuate rapidly. Pay close attention to your pH as it will drop in lower salinities.
I would not advice placing any rock that has been in an infected QT into the sump of your display. If anything, simply place it in a bin of tank water with a heater and leave it there for a month. THe parasite will die off w/o a fish host.

 

[hogcr8]

Guess what, you are right. It is back with a vengence...... I will start the Hypo tonight. He is not a happy camper. I have a 5 gallow bucket I can put the rock in with a small power head and a heater. One question, I have more floss filters in my sump as well as some sponge filters that I cut to fit in my filter in the QT that have been there for about 2 months, should I take the old ones out and put new ones in to keep the BIO up since I will be removing the LR?
Thanks for the help........ I love this place.......

 

[nicetry]

As long as the sponge filters are well seasoned, there is no need to replace them. The QT should remain cycled.

 

[hogcr8]

One last question before I start this process. I have 4 turbo snails in the tank, can they stay or should I put them in with the rock?????
thanks again....
I am trying not to be too stressed about this...... But I guess that's part of the enjoyment of having a tank......
Oh..... How much should I lower the Sal with each water change. I know I need to do it over a 48 hour period but not sure how much it can be lowered each time......

 

[nicetry]

The snails can't tolerate hyposalinity so should be placed in normal saline water.
I'd change out one gallon at a time to lower your salinity. check levels with each change. If you reach your target salinity (14 ppt) in under 48 hours that's okay. Fish can tolerate a fairly rapid reduction in salinity. Be sure to have an accurate measuring device (refractometer or lab grade glass hydrometer). The plastic swing arm hydrometers are by in large inaccurate.

 

[hogcr8]

Got a Refrect. So take out one gallon of salt and add one gallon of fresh?????? I have a small nitrite problem as well not bad but there is some .2. Right now I am at 1.024. If my math is correct which it probably isn't I can take out 5 gallons of salt at 1.024 and add 5 gallons of salt at 1.014 it shoud end up about 1.020. That might help with my nitrite problem as well. Then once it is gone I can do the gallon at a time. Does that sound about right????
Thanks again so much for the help. Just trying to think all this through and if it wasn't for you guys I'd be pulling my hair out.........
The snails can go back in the DT??????

 

[nicetry]

Too large a water change can disrupt your biological filtration, and while water changes can help with nitrites, I'd suggest simply starting with the one gallon change outs. The gradual decrease in salinity won't stress the angel and won't throw off your biofiltration. Once you're at your target salinity, you can then do regular water changes much as you'd do in the display tank; 2-3 gallons at a time using saltwater mixed to hyposaline levels. It would be a good idea to start mixing some SW now at 14 ppt. Letting it age/aerate for a few days is wise.
My only concern in placing the snails back in the DT is that they have been in the Qt tank which was infected. While it's remote, there is a possibility of them transferring the parasite into the DT. Can you put the snails in the bucket with the rock/heater? They should be okay if the temp is consistant and there is some water movement. I'd suggest doing small water changes in this container as well to keep things from going south. Again, it's not likely that the snails will transfer the parasite, but it's been theorized that it can happen. What else is in the display? any other fish?

 

[hogcr8]

Too late for the snails. I had read that snails and inverts can't carry ICH so before I read your response I placed them in the DT. Hopefully they won't transfer anything.
1 Flame
1 Coral Beauty
1 neon Dottyback
1 male Larytail
2 clowns
1 neon goby
I have been feeding them food soaked in fresh garlic and selcon for a long time so hopefully their immune systems are up just in case anything was transfered (no way to tell which snails now cause they are mixed up with the others) otherwise I wish I had waited to read your post.
I used some water from my DT and cut it down so my BIO should be good but from here on out I will take your advice and just do a gallon at a time. Thanks for the idea about having water standing by at 1.009 that way I don't have to freak out everytime I need to do something with the tank. I will test at least twice a day for Ammo, nitrites and PH.
I hope I didn't screw up by putting the snails back in the DT. I guess I will find out.....
I will keep you posted.....
Thanks again
Cory

 

[nicetry]

You should be okay. When trophonts fall off the fish, they can rest on rock, corals, inverts, etc. There is minimal risk of contamination by adding these things to a display tank, but it can happen. If the fish in the DT are otherwise healthy, there shouldn't be a problem, but it's something to keep in mind. Some hobbyists QT everything, including inverts. It might be seen as overkill but it's a way to ensure no pathogens get into your system.
Post back if you hit any snags.

 

[hogcr8]

OK I'm just as stressed as he is now but it would be a lot worst if it wasn't for this site.......
Here's where we stand as of 2350 hours
Ammo 0
Sal 1.021 down from 1.024
Nitrite .2
PH 8. I think - My test kit only does .5 increments. I plan on buying a new one tomorrow.
I will start at 0700 tomorrow morning with the 1 gallon changes. I have 12 gallons of pre mix at 1.009 so when I get him down I will already have what I need......
Will post tomorrow morning as soon as know what is going on........
I can't say thanks enough for all you help.....
Type to you guys tomorrow.....
Cory

 

[peter1215]

what if this would happen in the DT of a fowlr. can you do the hypo treatment in the DT? will it affect the LR?

 

[nicetry]

Originally Posted by peter1215
what if this would happen in the DT of a fowlr. can you do the hypo treatment in the DT? will it affect the LR?
You can perform hyposalinity treatment in a DT but LR needs to be removed. Hypo will kill off much of the life in LR and the results can impact your water parameters (ammonia spike). In large systems, treating in the DT is sometimes easier than attempting to quarantine/transfer several large fish into a smaller tank.

 

[jesses89]

Yes it will affect the live rock...
and putting the snails, that where in the ich infested QT, in the display tank ... IMO was a very very bad idea.

 

[hogcr8]

Nothing I can do about it now (I screwed up, didn't think they could carry it over), they have mixed with the other snails and I will not be able to tell which ones were in the QT. I know that KICK ICH is pretty much worthless but do you think it might not be a bad idea to get some and run it in the tank just in case????? (believe it or not I have enough for 2 treatments) Or is there some other product you guys can recommend for my screw up.............. I would hate for the others fish in the tank to get ICH cause I put some damn snails back in there........
OH well.......It's a learning process..... and I have learned another thing never to do.........
Thanks
Cory

 

[jesses89]

its not the snails that are/where bad.... its the water they were carrying from the QT tank with them that where bad... taking them out will do no good now... you can only hope the water they carried over didnt have 1 ich critter in it... just watch your fish in your display tank carefully

 

[hogcr8]

Just to make sure I have things right. I started the hypo last night and brought the Sal from 1.024 to 1.021. I have swapped out a gallon of water this morning and brought it to 1.020. This doesn't seem like much. How often do I need to swap out a gallon not to mess up my BIO? Any way, once I see no signs of ICH I leave the fish in the tank at 1.009 for 3 weeks and then over 5 to 7 days raise the level matching the Sal and PH to my display. At that point I can acclimate him and place him in the DT?
I have Kent Marine Superbuffer-dKH for keeping the PH up. Is there anything special I need to know so I don't overdose the PH using this product?
Also, is there anything else I really need to keep an eye on. I plan on running test at a minimum of 2 to 3 times a day (Ammo, nitrite, nitrate, and PH).
Question about the screw up on the snails...... If ICH were introduced to my DT and the fish in there have a high enough immune system to fight them off and do not show any signs of it will the ICH died off??????
Thanks all, I really feel that I can trust the info from this site cause after reading so many post you folks have your stuff together................
Cory

 

[nicetry]

Swap out a gallon of water every couple hours or so. Bringing the salinity down by a couple points at a time is not harmful. Just check it after each change.
Leave the tank in hyposaline conditions for three weeks after all symptoms are gone. Bear in mind that there are some strains of ich that are resistant to hypo so it may take a bit longer, but usually the three weeks is enough. Then raise the salinity back to DT levels over 5-7 days. You could leave the ish in normal salinity in the QT for another week just to be safe, but this is your call. If it's looking good and eating well, it's okay to place it back to the display.
I know you're anxious about the snails. At this point hope for the best. Again, the possibility is remote that the parasite was transferred to your DT. Some fish can acquire an immunity from ich and never show symptoms. If your other fish are healthy, and on the slim chance the parasite was in your DT, they may never fall victim. When you add the new angel, just watch closely for a week or so. There is no way to ensure he won't contract the parasite again other than by observation. Don't sweat it until then. If you have to treat it a second time, you'll be more comfortable in the procedure. It's a vexing problem in this hobby but it can be managed, prevented and cured. You just need to know what to do.
Sounds like you're on track so far. Once you're done however, keep your QT up and running. This was good advice I recived many years ago and mine is going all the time, just in case.