ICH or Battle Wounds? PICS enclosed

[aquiman]

Hi all. I have what appear to be either battle wounds or the early signs of ICH on two out of a dozen fish in my 90G FOLR tank that’s been running for about two months. I think a key point to consider is when the affected fish were added, and the frequent aggression I witness on a daily basis. Back on Aug 24 I added what turned out to be a pretty aggressive mid-size yellow tang to a tank that had only two small Green Chromis and two small Ocellaris Clowns and there was no aggression. On Sept 15 I added a pretty small Niger Trigger and the Tang immediately began jabbing the Trigger with his dorsal and tail fins which continues to this day. On Sept 28 I added a Long-nose Butterfly, and the Tang's aggression shifted immediately to the Butterfly with less attention paid to the Trigger. The Trigger has two tiny white spots on the left pectoral fin as well as one near the top dorsal fin not visible in pics. On the Butterfly, there are only two spots - one on his tail fin and the other on his left pectoral fin and I also see a few nips in his tail fin. There is not a spot on any other fish nor any Tang aggression to any others. All fish are acting and eating totally normal and all water specs are real good too. Sorry the pics are horrible but I've included the best out of about 50 taken. Disregard anything else in the pics that resemble white spots as they are either bubbles or stuff floating.
I’ve read the hyposalinity method of treatment and dread taking all of the fish out to QT so I want to be sure I’m in ICH trouble before I do anything drastic. I've considered a QT but shame on me for not starting one yet! Anyway, please take a look at the pics and let me know what makes sense at this point. Thanks!



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[beth]

Looks like ich to me. Also, if you have a dozen fish, they will all need to be in QT. Does your tank have corals or inverts? Do you have a refractometer?

 

[aquiman]

Thanks for the quick response. I have a bunch of snails and a chocolate chip starfish and that's it besides the fish. I do have refractometer and salinity reads 1.024.

 

[beth]

How are your water parameters in your tank? You have live rock, correct?

 

[aquiman]

Yes, over 50 lbs of live rock. PH 8.2, Nitrates and Nitrites 0, ammonia between 0 and .25(hard time matching up API test vial with chart they give you) thank you.

 

[beth]

I'm going to suggest that you perform the hyposalinity procedure in the display tank, and remove all of the live rock and the inverts you have to a separate container. You can use a rubbermaid container or containers with good powerheads for circulation. Leave a couple of smaller pieces of the live rock in the display as you need to keep the biofilter going. What do you have for filtration? Are you using live sand?
You have too many fish to realistically treat them in a QT, unless you want to set up a 50 gal QT. As it is, you are already experiencing aggression. You will need to add fake rocks or even pvc pieces to the hypo tank in the absence of the the live rock for your fish.
I want to also tell you that 12 fish for tank that is newly set up is way too many fish. Your tank should have been fully cycled before adding any fish, and certainly any new fish. That is hindsight.
As you begin the hypo process your water pH will likely start to drop. Since you have ammonia, keep your pH at 8.0 rather then 8.2. Ammonia is less toxic with lower pH levels. Also, be prepared to address ammonia issues, since your tank is already experiencing that problem even with the live rock. Keep made up salt water with a salinity of 1.009 ready for water changes.
Needless to say, before you buy new fish, you will want to go ahead and get a quarantine tank.

 

[aquiman]

I have live sand and my filtration is an EcoSystem sump/fuge. I actually have an old spare 55g that I could use but would need to get a filter. Does this change anything in the way of your suggestions? Is time of the essence here? Is there any chance I don't have to do this? I am dreading it either way, but really appreciate your help!

 

[beth]

The problem is that any tank you set up as a quarantine now will be uncycled, and you have a lot of fish. Even in the display tank, your system is not completely cycled since you are getting ammonia. What is in your fuge?
You can go either way, but my feeling is that aggression will escalate in a smaller tank and you will need to be diligently on top of ammonia. You should do what is most comfortable for you.
The worse part of tearing down a tank to deal with a crisis is thinking about it. Once its done, it is not so bad. Right now the ich does not seem so bad, but it will get worse. You have a few days to get things started. Maybe over the weekend. Or next week.
Also, maybe its time to return the aggressive tang to the fish store?

 

[aquiman]

Thanks Beth. In the fuge is "mud" that came with it and some recommended plant material I added but I cant think of the name. It's a ball of stringy plant stuff that I keep a light on during the night for. I think at this point I'm leaning toward maybe a 30G hospital setup that I can also use as a QT when buying new fish down the road. This sound OK? (most of fish are small) As for the tang, not sure LFS will want it since the tank is infected, but the little bugger is so freakin mean!!! A big unknown for me is how to catch everything to get it into the QT since DT has loads of rock and decor. Would it be best to temporarily take out all the rock - then catch everything for QT and then put rock back in the DT.... or spend hours trying to get lucky and stressing them all out chasing them around the tank with a net while they hide?
I would take water from DT and fill QT then slowly lower the salinity .001 per day by adding fresh .009 and get QT down to .009 - right?
One other question if you dont mind... I've read that ICH gets introduced by the aquarist putting in unquarantined fish which to me means it comes from the LFS. Other reading seems to indicated swings in water quality could be a cause. Is it both? Aside from QTing newbies, what's your take on a controversial UT Sterilizer or something else to prevent disease????
I'm so pissed but I guess it's all my fault! Thanks.

 

[beth]

Ich is a parasite, so swings in environmental quality has nothing to do with fish having or getting ich. Low water quality or stress is an opportunistic event for ich (that is already present) to lower the fish's natural defenses allowing ich to blossom. However, in a closed system, such as an aquarium, there is no escaping ich once it is introduced and it will, at some point, cause a full scale problem. The answer is to avoid introducing that problem in the first place. Also, while ich is a fish disease, it is possible for it to be inadvertently introduced through exposed equipment, such as a net used in an infected tank, or even on the hard surfaces of corals, live rock, or sand that have likewise been exposed to an infected fish tank.
The life cycle of the parasite includes periods where the organism is in the water column as well as stationary on hard surfaces in the aquaria, such as rocks or even the shells of inverts (snails for instance). Some aquarists quarantine their live rock as well as corals and inverts in addition to fish. If you don't want to go that route, then be sure that when you purchase these things that they are not sharing tanks or plumbing with fish tanks.
It sounds like you decided to remove your fish to a hospital tank rather then leaving the fish in the display for the procedure. Yes, use 100% water from the display tank to set up the QT. Use a few cups of sand from the display as well to seed the QT and provide additional surface area for your biofilter to grow. Reducing to hypo conditions can take a lot of water changes. Are you planning to use a 30 or 50 gal for this? I'm confused about whether the plan was to use the 30 down the road for future acquisitions, or if you were going to set that up at this point to deal with the current situation? Catching the fish will be a problem with all the live rock in the tank, which is another reason I was thinking of leaving the fish in the display and removing the rock to a temp. container. I'm not sure there is an advantage to taking all the rock out and then taking all the fish out. If you are going to remove the rock anyway, then why not just leave the fish in the display for the procedure. A note on that: macroalgae in the fuge will not survive hypo.
Let the fish adjust to the new environment for a day, then remove 5 gals water from the hospital tank on the 2nd day. Replace 1 gal of water in intervals during the course of the 2nd day. If the fish respond well with this speed, you can increase the gallonage exchange a bit in the following days until you achieve the 1.009 specific gravity, 14ppm salinity.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/a/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans

 

[aquiman]

Thank you! Sorry I wasn't clear on QT size. I'm going to scrap the 55G option (too big) and go with something smaller now to hospitalize, and then use this smaller (30G - a good size to go out and buy for this use????) to QT any new additions later on when I get over this situation. So with stress, being a cause, that would explain why the two fish that get beat up by the tang have it - right? If I were to go the other route and treat the DT, wouldn't I have to remove all the sand too? What's your opinion on UV sterilizers to aid in prevention down the road?

 

[beth]

I would not put all those fish in a 30 gal. Too many fish even in a cycled tank.
A 30 gal would be a good size QT for down the road.
No, the live sand can stay in the display tank during hypo.
Stress is not the cause of ich. Stress, however, can make an ich problem worse. Or it can make fish who have minimal parasites get a full blown life-threatening infection. In a closed system, even without stress, fish are very likely to get a full blown ich infection.
If you use quarantine procedures effectively, there won't be much need for a UV. If you plan to have a reef tank, then a UV would be be a source of killing off live food that corals and micro-organism need in an aquarium.

 

[aquiman]

Thanks again Beth. Went to LFS today ready to begin setting up a hospital tank and talked to one of the real knowledgable staffers and told him I was about to try the hyposalinity process. Because it seems my ich case isn't too bad yet, he suggested first trying a product called Kick-Ich before stressing out the fish to get them hospitalized. He said it has about a 50/50 chance in working. He also had something stronger but suggested I try this first (it wasn't copper but I can't remember the other name). I plopped my $40 down (much cheaper on line!) and thought I'd give it a shot. When I got home I started reading reviews on the product and out of about 50 reviews, I'd say more than half seemed positive and some swore by it. Others were real hard on it saying it didn't work at all. A few said to watch ph level closely. Its supposed to be ok in reef tanks, not harmful to inverts and there are two dose levels based on severity. I think the key might be what stage you catch it in to have it help. Have you ever tried this? Anyone else ever try it?
:flame:

 

[beth]

I am one of those that basically view this product rather negatively. The active ingredient is 5-Nitroimidazoles which is an antibiotic. It is supposed to be effective against ich in the free-swimming stage of the parasite. I strongly disagree that any antibiotic should be used in the display tank. It cost way too much with too little hobbyists claiming it was effective. And from what I have read, to have any real effectiveness (maybe) it requires double the dose.
Anyway, keep us posted.

 

[aquiman]

A quick update... tomorrow will be the 2nd treatment. After the first on Friday, Saturday it looked as if most of the spots were gone but today my hippo tang has more than prior to the first treatment. Perhaps just the stage of the Ich phases??? In the when it rains it pours column, my Niger Trigger now appears to have Lymphocystis. I read your posts on it and viewed your pics. Here is what he looks like. Do you agree its Lymphocystis? I know water quality and nutrition play a role in this virus. I feed mysis shrimp, frozen prawn, omega one pellets (veggie and regular) and Daphnia which has vitamins and I sometimes soak with garlic (bottled). My water has been either zero ammonia or close to it. My nitrites and nitrates have always been zero and my PH has typically been about 8.2 and I do water changes every week of 10%. I realize now that I added too many fish too soon, and haven't quarantined..... are these the root of my problems???

 

[beth]

It is hard to tell without a close-up picture. Have you tested your water?

 

[aquiman]

Here is a closer Pic Beth. Last water readings were Friday and they were PH 8.4, Salinity 1.024, Nitrate & Nitrites 0, and Ammonia near 0. Reason I say near zero is difficulty matching up the vial with the color chart. It's either 0 or somewhere between 0 and .25. Thank you again.

 

[beth]

Just to blurry to see much. However, with ich going on, it is not unlikely that a fish carrying the virus will start experiencing lympho. Stress is a factor in lympho.

 

[aquiman]

Hi Beth/all: just an update as promised. On the Kick-Ich, I am now through 5 treatments (phase 1) as directed on the label and have what I would consider pretty good news on that front but also some not so good news. Good news is the Trigger appears to be totally clear of the Ich now for I'd say at least a week, probably more. What I think was lympho is just about gone on him too. Around the time I started the treatment, my Hippo tang came down with Ich too. Although it looks like the Ich is much better on him, he had been flashing against the rocks and getting picked on so although he's not looking the greatest, I don't think the Ich is what is bothering him now. As for the long nose butterfly, he only had a couple of Ich spots on him and didn't seem to get worse, but got picked on unmercifully by my yellow tang and died while I was away for a couple days. I guess the jury is still out on the Ich, but at this point it appears to be on its way out. I'm going to follow the repeat 5 treatments (phase 2) as suggested on the directions just to be sure. None of the other fish have shown any signs of Ich. If anyone else tries the Kick-Ich, be sure to keep a close eye on your PH... By the way, my protein skimmer has been turned off since I started the treatment. Comments welcome.
Quarantine tank next on my list.... Even though a bit late!
:flame:

 

[aquiman]

Finished the kick-Ich treatments and its been a few weeks now. Thrilled to report the Ich is gone and the hippo tang and Niger Trigger are doing great! I would try the stuff again if I ever got another outbreak.
:laughing: