Ich Outbreak...Help!!

[tliss]

I am new to the salt water adventure and I am all ready starting to get discouraged. Here is the situation, per the guidlines:
1. State the problem - ich outbreak in my tank...so far three fish have white spots...one perc. clown and two black mollies (used them to cycle the tank)
2. List symptoms - all three have white spots...still eating fine and not exibiting any abnormal behavior
3. How long the fish has been exhibiting these symptoms. - noticed the spots today on the clown and a just recently on the mollies
4. What is in the tank - 1 sally lightfoot crab, 12-ish hermits, 2 feather dusters, 3 assorted damsels, one other molly, 50# live rock 20# live sand
5. State the tank size, and how long the tank has been up and running. - 29 gal, been up and running for a little over 2 months
5. Diet; what are you feeding the fish, and do you use any supplements like selcon, zoe, zoecon or garlic. - flake food with the occasional treat of frozen brine shrimp
6. How long have you had the particular fish and have there been any new additions. - the mollies were in there about a week or two after we started the tank...the perc clown has been in there for less than a week
7. Was the fish quarantined prior to placing it in your main tank, and do you have a quarantine tank that you can use? EVERYONE SHOULD!!!) - new to the hobby...don't have a quarantine tank, nor do I have the resources or room for another tank...
8. Have you tried any treatments thus far before posting here. And, if so, describe what you have done. - nothing yet...haven't found anything I can do yet
9. Water parameters!!! ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, temperature and salinity. These are very important to know. Please don't say "my water quality is good". Give real numbers. It could be the key to solving the problem. sepcificgravity 1.022, pH ~8.2 (color scales are very close), ammonia 0 mg/l, nitrite <0.3 mg/l, temperature remains around 77-78*, don't have a test for nitrate.
The issue I have is most posts here state quarantine the sick fish and treat accordingly (hyposalinity and copper). I obviously don't have the time to allow a quarantine tank to cycle, nor do I have a tank I can use or resources to set up another salt tank (this one has really drained me). I can't dump half of my 29 gallon tanks' water into a 10 gallon to speed along the cycle and risk the rest of my tank. I need a solution that I can use inside my 29 gallon. Does anyone have a suggestion? I do not want to lose these fish, not do I want to kill my inverts. I have a long history with freshwater fish and have been vert successful at treaing infections and whatnot there, but this is new ground for me.
All help would be appreciated. If ich kills off my fish, then I am likely just going to keep it as an invert tank...I really have a hard time dealing with this kid of thing.
Tom

 

[beth]

Sorry to say but the only viable treatments are hyposalinity or copper. Do you have LR, inverts? Start offering the fish heavy feedings of food soaked in freshly minced garlic.

 

[tliss]

Originally Posted by Beth
Sorry to say but the only viable treatments are hyposalinity or copper. Do you have LR, inverts? Start offering the fish heavy feedings of food soaked in freshly minced garlic.
I do have live rock and inverts...see #4 above. I'll try the freshly minced garlic and hope...

Tom

 

[jer4916]

tom, easy, take the fish out, place them in a qt tank, treat them in hypo or copper there, and leave your tank empty (fish wise) for a few weeks and BAM ich be gone!

 

[scubadoo]

You have traces of nitrite in the tank? Your tank is not cycled if you have nitrite present. THis is your problem....poor water quality is one of the causes for an ich outbreak if the disease is present.

 

[tliss]

Jer4916...I don't have a quarantine tank, nor do I have the time to set one up (to really help this batch of fish, anyway) and cycle it...herein lies the problem. If I had one, believe me I would use it!!
ScubaDoo...my testing kit (if you want to really trust it) shows nitrite levels are in the acceptable range (<0.3 mg/l is the lowest catagory the color chart shows, and it is very much showing that color). I watched the tank very carefully through the cycle before adding any fish, so I know it cycled. When I added additional LR I watched it vert closely again. Maybe it just finished recycling for some reason??
In any case, I'm doing what I can. I QT will be set up and cycled soon, but I don't know if it'll be tool late for these guys. I've got to treat them in the main tank and hope I don't kill everything in the process. Wish me luck.
Tom :sleepy:

 

[jer4916]

you can get a 10 gallon for just a few bucks, and if you have ich, i wouldn't worry about cycling it,..if anything give them a freshwater dip...i would also watch your levels like crazy.

 

[tliss]

Update...I started the feeding with food soaked in garlic...they seem to like it. I see no visible signs of Ich on anyone anymore, but I'm still going to fight it. Though I know no one on this site really believes those Ich cures are worth a crap, I bought one and am trying it very carefully now (I will not mention names as I am not interested in getting raked across the coals for using it!). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it does not affect the rest of my tank. I am also exploring the 10 gallon QT now, as I have dispaced filters and other stuff that I can easily get it going with. I was just worried about the cycling. Keep you posted...
Tom

 

[boalgf]

Hey Beth, I had a question for you or anyone else who knows about quarantine tanks.
I have a 10gal quarantine tank that I just set up. i really need to put my adult emperor in there, even though it may be too small for him. He has crazy ich!
I don't have time to cycle the quarantine tank, will he be ok in there if the tank hasnt cycled? How do I keep it from cycling?? Should I use the main tank water which has good levels or use fresh saltwater?
Someone please help, I don't want to lose a $150 dollar fish!
Sorry to hijack the post, but it seemed along the same lines as my problem.

 

[jer4916]

i would give the animal a fresh water dip asap, and then hypo the tank...i would use a larger tank myself, but if you HAVE to do it...then do it...either that or hes dead... you know?
but i would only use the 10 gallon if you HAVE to.
~chris
but do hypo and a freshwater dip.

 

[tthemadd1]

Definately do the QT. Its small but hell survive. Also it is important to understand that you really are not going to cycle a new tank. At least a bare tank with no LR/LS. Put a piece of your live rock in to make them feel a little more like home. Just remember that you cannot put that rock back in your Display Tank. Also you have to regular water changes, maybe a charcoal filter would help. This will help keep the ammonia levels down. Also, a freshwater dip for an hour will help to get some of the little guys off of your fish. Then throw them into the bath. Good Luck
themaddhatter

 

[jer4916]

DO NOT DO A FRESHWATER DIP FOR AN HOUR...OMG THAT IS WAY TO LONG, LONGEST YOUR SUPPOSED TO DO IS 7 MINUTES AND THATS PUSHING IT!!!!!!! ...do not use a charcole filter,...charcole obsorbs meds...use a spounge filter, or a bio filter.

 

[boalgf]

It didn't work. The combination of little tank and big fish caused an ammonia spike in a few hours. Which would mean a water change every hour or so for a month to keep from cycling. I guess I'll have to cycle a bigger tank and hope he lasts long enough in the display tank for the quarantine to finish cycling. Do LFS ever take care of fish for a few weeks? Maybe I should contact mine and see how they are about that.
PS I know enough about saltwater fish to know an hour fresh water dip is a good way to kill them. I try and avoid dips in general.

 

[tthemadd1]

Wow I am sorry I suggested that hour dip. I heard it from alot of people. Seriously, I will look more into that. I was under the impression that the fish would be fine, but that was a huge mistake. Dont crucify me.. Once again big apology....

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by boalgf
It didn't work. The combination of little tank and big fish caused an ammonia spike in a few hours. Which would mean a water change every hour or so for a month to keep from cycling. I guess I'll have to cycle a bigger tank and hope he lasts long enough in the display tank for the quarantine to finish cycling. Do LFS ever take care of fish for a few weeks? Maybe I should contact mine and see how they are about that.
PS I know enough about saltwater fish to know an hour fresh water dip is a good way to kill them. I try and avoid dips in general.
With all due respect to the posters here...Never place an adult Emperor Angel in a 10 gallon tank. Their requirments are such that they would most likely die from living in a coke can. The bioload alone as you experienced would do them in along with the stress from cramped quarters.
You first need to understnad what causes an ich outbreak. Stress, poor water quality, weak immune systems, poor diet, constant fluctuating temps of more than two degrees all provide oppurtunity for the disease to take off if it is present in your system.
Most healthy animals in a marine system can fight off the disease if none of the above conditions are present. Review the list and check your system for these conditions.
Check all your water parameters and make sure they are within acceptable ranges. What size tank is the Emperor in? THey require large systems with plenty live rock. If he is eating you can provide garlic soaked food and food soaked in vitamins such as selcon to help boost the immune system.
You can also do a freshwater dip as a last resort but make sure the water has the same ph and temp as the display. Make sure the animal is strong enough to survive the dip. The frehwater dip will kill most of the parasites. Hopedully this will give him additional time to grow stronger and fight the disease. If you do a freshwater dip I would also feed hin the vitamin soaked food and garlic soaked food. THis may give him the strenght needed to fight the disease. It may not be necessary to dip...your call.
You can also remove all your inverts to the smaller tank and treat the main tank with hyposalinity.
I STRONGLY advise not placing the adult Emperor back in the coke can...his chance of survivng in a 10 gallon tank for weeks is about zero. His chances are better taking any of the steps previously outlined in this post.

 

[boalgf]

He is in a 125 right now with only 2 other fish and an eel. The only stress factor was moving him in to the tank, which must have been enough. All other things check out fine. No amm or nitrites, trace nitrates, constant temp of 81-82, and he eats like there is no tomorrow. I already soak their food in garlic and zoe. He must just be prone to ich because I have a naso tang and he is fine. I also have a foxface, but that guy is bulletproof.
I ended up doing a freshwater dip for about 5 minutes while switching him from the quarantine deathtrap to the main tank. I hated not being able to bring the salinity back up slowly, but I was out of options. He is alive this morning but still has some small amount of ich. He's eating well still, so at least he's a fighter.
I can't (or won't) hypo the main tank. I have live rock/sand/inverts/copepods. There's no way I can take all of that out.

 

[fishnerd]

Originally Posted by Jer4916
you can get a 10 gallon for just a few bucks, and if you have ich, i wouldn't worry about cycling it,..if anything give them a freshwater dip...i would also watch your levels like crazy.
Never return a fish to the infested water after a FW dip. You will only stress the fish and make matters worse.

 

[tliss]

Well, the clownfish became crab food. Found my sally lightfoot hiding in the rocks grasping the remnants of Nemo's corpse for dear life. Doubtful I would be able to get the corpse from the crab without pulling apart all of my rockwork, so I'll let him have the $15 treat.

From the look of it there was something wrong with the clownfish from day 1. He really only lasted a week and a half in my tank...and none of the previous inhabitants have come down with ick. I'm going to keep a close eye on the tank and at the next sign of ick they are all coming out of the tank when I do a water change and they are going into quarantine. I think I'll just use the water from the water change in the QT and go hypo from there on all of the fish.
Anyway just an update. I'm going to get this whoel salt water aquarium thing figured out if it kills me!!
Tom