Ich outbreak - Need Help Quick

[jsisler]

I have a 300 gallon tank that has been setup for about six months. I also have about 200 lbs of live rock that is pretty much base rock after the curing process which killed anything visible on the rock. I am running two giant algae scrubbers for filtration and currently have all zeros with a ph of 8.3. The tank is stocked with the following:
10 inch red sea Imperator – 4 years
8 inch blue face angel – 10 years
5 inch Koran angel – 3 months
5 inch black tang – 4 years
5 inch purple tang – 4 years
4 inch powder blue – 3 months
2 inch Picasso trigger – 3 months
I had an outbreak of ich about two months ago and moved all the fish to a 75gallon hospital tank where I treated with coppersafe for three weeks. Treatment went very well with no fatalities. I let the main display tank run fallow for about 5 ½ weeks and slowly returned the fish to the display. That was about four weeks ago and I now have mild to medium case of ich again. This time I don’t have room in the hospital tank as I am quarteening a large golden puffer and a percula clownfish. I am close to treating the main tank with coppersafe because the research I have done shows that rid ich and kent’s RX p don’t really work. My questions for the experts are as follows 1.) Will the live rock absorb all of the copper? 2.) If I go this route is the chelated coppersafe copper the way to go or should I use a free copper? 3.) Will coralline algae continue to grow on the rock if I treat with copper? 4.) Is their a chance that I get a big ammonia spike even though the rocks looks dead except for the coralline? I understand that I may not be able to have inverts again but that is no loss to me as the puffer and triggers would take care of that anyway. I really do not want to go this route but hyposalinity would be very difficult due to the amount of water involved unless I went the route of not using RO-DI water to lower the salinity. Also if possible I would like to eradicate the ich and not just minimize it so the first stressed fish I have starts the whole process again. Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated.

 

[beth]

Don't even think of putting copper in that tank. It will kill all the LR and any live sand that you have.
Will all your fish fit in the 75? You can go ahead and place them in the QT, even with the new fish, and treat all fish with hyposalinity. Do you have, or can you get a refractometer.
Did you take copper readings during the previous treatment? If not, that could be why it failed.
Take a look at the info in the FAQ Thread at the top of the forum on the subjects of hyposalinity, ich and refractometer.

 

[jsisler]

Beth,
I don't think my live rock is alive to begin with and I know for sure that the sand is not alive. I only have about an inch of sand and their is nothing living in it that can be seen with the

[hr]
eye.
I don't think their is room in the 75 for all of the fish inlcuding the ones that are already in the 75. In fact when I did it last time I had to put the purple tang in the sump which caused a really bad case of HLLE which as healed very quickly in the display (Thank God!).
The copper treatment I did the last time in the 75 worked very well as their were no signs of ich when I transferred them back to the display. The problem is that the fallow method did not work for me. I guess their was enough of a population that did not dye in the display. I did test the copper everyday and kept it at a strong thereapuetic level. The copper was very stable and I never had to dose from the inital dosing.
So my options are to due Hyposalinity in the main tank with tap water or to treat with copper and hope the live rock does not absorb it to the point that I am continually adding copper over the three week treatment regime. Do you have any idea how much copper the live rock (or base rock in my case) will absorb? And which route do you think I should take?
All suggestions are welcome.
Also the temp is pretty constant between 83-84 degrees.

 

[eagle1]

jsisler,
Hypo is the way to go. Take the chance on the putting all the fish in the 75. I threw all my fish (six of them) in a 20 gal QT using hypo (with refractometer) and they all lived to tell about it. Threw them back in my display after about five weeks and have had no ich issues to speak of. Yellow tang looks awesome. Nice, bright, solid yellow. Percs are a healthy orange. I did not use ANY medicines whatsoever. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[beth]

I strongly feel that the copper simply did not work because of the a fallacy in what you did. Coppersafe is not the best choice, and, IMO, may well have been the cause of HLLE. You can not just dose copper with using test kits to maintain therapeutic levels.
Go ahead and do the hypo in your main tank. Hypo will not effect your bio-filter in the display, while copper will kill much of it. Prepare yourself for MAJOR water changes to achieve the hypo. I’m assuming this is a FO tank then?
If you are unsure about the life cycle of ich, take a look at the ich post in the FAQ Thread. The parasite’s lifecyle may well explain the seemingly “cure” of ich, when, in fact, the fish still had the problem.
Do you have a refractometer?

 

[jsisler]

Beth, I'm not sure where were miscommunicating but the Copper did work in the 75. There were no signs of ich for almost four weeks in the 75 before the additonal three weeks of no ich in the display tank. I am certain that there was no ich in the 75 when I transferred the fish to the display. As you know it has been well documented that ich cannot survive three weeks at the level I was using. As for the purple tang and HLLE that was caused because he did not see any daylight and lived in 6 inches of water for 8 weeks. With that being said your recommendatation is to do hypo with dechlorinated tap water instead of using copper in the main display? Please keep in mind that I do not use bacteria to filter my water (except what is on the live rock) as I use Algae Scrubbers. Also do you know much the live rock will absorb the copper? Thank you for all of your help.

 

[beth]

The rocks in there, will definitely absorb the copper, no doubt about it. Copper is a toxin and your biofilter will also take a major hit if you use it in the display. When using copper also understand that you are using a highly potent TOXIN. The hope when using it is that you will kill off all the parasites but not the fish. But, don’t think for a minute that fish are not effected, or even the aquaria. To me, and most others, this just is not desirable, thus, I believe hypo is your most viable option. Do you have a refractometer? Is this a FO tank? What kind of rock is it you are using?
jsisler, I guess if you want to analyze how you got re-infected, we would need to get down to specifically what happened. The only point to doing that would be better understand what happened to avoid it from happening again.

 

[jsisler]

Beth/Trey,
I took your advice and lowered the salinity to 13.5 ppt after receiveing my refractometer. I also calibrated it at 68 degrees with distilled water. The therapeutic level of salinity was reached tuesday morning. The visibile ich spots have dramatically increased over these past 2+ days so I am assuming that these parasites were already in the free swimming stage or they were already attached and just not visible. Is this a safe assumption or should most of the spots be gone by now? Its to the point now that most of the fish have close to a 50 - 100 hundred of visible spots and are obviously agitated. They are all still eating but I'm wondering if I should due a FW dip in the meantime. I don't want to due this unless absolutely necessary. What do you recommend at this point and is this normal with hyposalinity. Thanks much in advance.
Jonathan

 

[eagle1]

I was in the same situation when I tossed my fish in the QT hypo environment. With my experience, the parasites dropped off and never returned. I didn't do anything as far as FW dips or medications. It seems they were strong enough to survive the last ich attack.
They should drop off soon. If your fish clear up, wait and see if the parasite returns and maybe do something then.
On the other hand, I'd hate to have you wait then all of a sudden your fish start dying so maybe some quick treatment to relieve the fish is in order. Hopefully the others answer this question better for you. Good luck.

 

[beth]

If the fish are doing ok at this point, go ahead and proceed with the hypo. At this stage, I would say that the parasite will drop soon. If the fish are stressed, you can do the FW dip, but be sure to buffer the water and bring the treatment bath to the same temp as the fish tank.
What is the specific gravity reading on your refract?
Also, who is Trey?

 

[jsisler]

The salinity is either 13-14ppt and 1.09 at 82 degrees. The fish are obviously stressed but do come to the front of the tank to feed when I enter the room. However when I'm not in the room they jitter thier fins occasionally and don't move much. Should the parasites have dropped off by now or is this normal? I thought trey was one of the moderators. He answers a lot of questions on this board or so I thought.

 

[beth]

It does sound normal. Can you post a pic? Are the fish still eating?

 

[jsisler]

They are still eating but are getting pretty covered with the little pests. No digitial camera.

 

[fishman830]

i would do hypo... i did on my 125 w/ blue hippo tang yellow tang 2 false percs and a green chromis.. they all lived.. i took it down to 1.014

 

[beth]

Its been a couple of days, what's the stutus?

 

[jsisler]

I did a 20 min freshwater dip on the imperator thursday night and have continued hypo treatment. As of this morning there does not appear to be any more parasites attached. I will continue hypo for additional six weeks before gradually raising the salinity. Thanks for everyone's help as it appears I have finally gotted the upper hand on this very annoying parasite. Beth, after six more weeks of hypo will this eliminate ich in the main tank or just substantially reduce the population to where it is not a problem anymore?