ich

stateraise

New Member
I have a 20 gal reef tank.I have 2 clowns 1 fire goby 1 wachman goby and a coral beauty.Fish are shoing signs of ich.Small white spots.It comes and goes.Cleaner shrimp takes pretty good care of the coral beauty.Dosent seem to be affecting the fish too much.They eat well and seem ok.I have alot of liverock and corals.Is their any way my fish will pull through this withought treatment.If not can i use KICK-ICH withought hurting anything?ichich
 
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exile415

Guest
you can feed your fish with minced garlic to boost up it's immune system, But sometimes it doesnt work. You can also .. perform hyposalinty
 

the reef

Member
I would do both hospital tank with hypo for fish only of course and also add the garlic with every feeding the hypo will kill off the ich but wont help the fishes imune system to fully develop that is why it is nesasary to also use garlic to boost their imune system.
their imune system can be damaged due to stress
 

fish fever

Member
Do you need fresh garlic? Can I prepare some in advance and put it in the refg? Its a lot of work to mash garlic for each feeding.
 

monalisa

Active Member
That sounds like an awful lot of fish in a 20gal...could that be the problem? Not sure what to do about your ich problem. What do your water parameters look like?
Lisa :happyfish
 

hot883

Active Member
Originally Posted by MonaLisa
That sounds like an awful lot of fish in a 20gal...could that be the problem? Not sure what to do about your ich problem. What do your water parameters look like?
Lisa :happyfish
I would have to agree Lisa. Way to many fish in a 20. That would be like shuving 15 people in a VW beetle and driving 1,200 miles. A little cramped may be.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fish Fever
Do you need fresh garlic? Can I prepare some in advance and put it in the refg? Its a lot of work to mash garlic for each feeding.
Kent Marine sells a liquid version of garlic (believe me.. open the bottle and you can tell it's garlic). You soak food in it for a few minutes before feeding. Fish love it!
Don't use any kind of medication in your display tank. Also, don't do hypo in your display tank. Both can/will kill inverts and beneficial bacteria.
The tank does sound crowded. That may be the cause of the ich breakout.
 
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exile415

Guest
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
ehh.. you'll get mixed reviews on UV. I personally go for the more natural approach.
I agree.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Just want to say be careful... There is a good chance that the ich will appear to go away for months. Fish can build up a natural immunity to ich, HOWEVER this does not last for ever. Your fish could be ich free for months with great water parameters and no new fish added and suddenly the ich could come back. If you want to keep that many fish in that small of a tank your best bet would be to find a way to get rid of the ich, i.e. quarintine your fish in a tank and preform hyposalinty for over 3 weeks. In this time the ich living on the fish should die and the fish in the main tank will die due to lack of hosting. Theoretically once you put the fish back you won't have to worry about ich again.
Of course it can be a pain to catch all your fish, or have the space for a QT so in your case a UV sterilizer MIGHT be beneficial. Although many people do not care for these devices they do work if set up properly. Although using a UV sterlizer may not be 'natural' neither is keeping fish in a tank of ANY size. Aquariums are kind of like ich heaven. So little space and so many fish!!! A UV sterlizer can be an unnatural way of controlling a problem cause by the unnatural hobby of fish keeping.
Oh, if you do choose to go with garlic as some other people mentioned, please let me know how it works...
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Just want to say be careful... There is a good chance that the ich will appear to go away for months. Fish can build up a natural immunity to ich, HOWEVER this does not last for ever. Your fish could be ich free for months with great water parameters and no new fish added and suddenly the ich could come back. ...
How does this occur? I was under the impression that the cysts could not lie dormant that long... without a "host" how does the ich survive in a tank to come back months later?
As far as the natural/unnatural thing.. my whole point is to go for as natural as I can... aragonite substrate, simulated sunlight, live rock, protein skimming (aka beach skimming), brisk, bulk water flow...
a UV does more harm than good imho. You are killing bacteria and plankton as well as the bad stuff. And since ich cysts stay in the substrate it's a roll of the dice to see if the ich larvae gets on a fish or sent through the UV filter first...
Garlic doesn't cure ich.. it's just reported to 1. stimulate a fish's appetite, 2. help build their immune system.
 

danedodger

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Garlic doesn't cure ich.. it's just reported to 1. stimulate a fish's appetite, 2. help build their immune system.
No, I don't think garlic cures ich since it can't kill the lil boogers but I do really believe that it HELPS cure ich or most anything! It's like I give garlic to my dogs. It doesn't kill fleas but it does help them stay flea-free by improving their skin, coat, and natural immune system so that their own natural defenses can do their part to repel fleas. At any rate I feel like it certainly doesn't do any harm so why not use it in the hopes that it will help?
 

mikeyjer

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
How does this occur? I was under the impression that the cysts could not lie dormant that long... without a "host" how does the ich survive in a tank to come back months later?
As far as the natural/unnatural thing.. my whole point is to go for as natural as I can... aragonite substrate, simulated sunlight, live rock, protein skimming (aka beach skimming), brisk, bulk water flow...
a UV does more harm than good imho. You are killing bacteria and plankton as well as the bad stuff. And since ich cysts stay in the substrate it's a roll of the dice to see if the ich larvae gets on a fish or sent through the UV filter first...
Garlic doesn't cure ich.. it's just reported to 1. stimulate a fish's appetite, 2. help build their immune system.
That I have to disagree with you!!!!!! Ich is present at ALL times, just depends on your fish's health. Garlic DOES cure ich, it worked for me quite a few time. I have not put up with ich for quite sometime thanks to garlic guard. Formula 2 has garlic added to it. That's what I use to feed the sick fish with ich. It went away in a week and a half. Never re-appeared!!!! We have used different treatment until we learned about garlic guard, we wouldn't go with anything else. I highly recommand it! :happyfish
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Ok... looks like we all (myself included) need a refresher course in Marine Ich. I took the following from Dr. Fenner's webpage:
"About "Crypt Free" Systems:
There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes. In actual fact cysts of Cryptocaryon can stay viable for a few to several months, hence ultraviolet sterilization, use of biological cleaners, allowing systems to go fallow... only decreases the number and virulence of these parasites. Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."
So, i was wrong.. the cysts may lie dormant for months... BUT, you can have an ich free tank if you practice QT.
Now, as to garlic... I am not saying that garlic can't cure disease, I just haven't seen any diffenitive tests showing that it can. In fact, just the opposite. I've seen fish die from ich while being fed garlic treated foods. I believe it can make a fish more healthy.. but I'm waiting for evidence before saying it "cures" anything.
 

mikeyjer

Active Member
Well, as far as I'm concerned, it cured my fish from ich. Numerous other people in this site would tell you the samething. Garlic brings up their immune system to fight off ich, that's probably a better way to put it. :happyfish
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Just to clarify. The reason why the ich can appear to go away and come back months later is that it did not truely go away. Just because it is not seen does not make it not there. When fish build up a natural immunity it is not always a 100% immunity.
Second, I normally would not consider a UV sterlizer to be very useful, HOWEVER based on the situation of having a small (20 gal) tank and several fish any ich in the tank would having a much MUCH higher probability of finding a host then in the ocean. That being said a UV sterlizer helps to even the playing field so to speak by greatly limiting the amount of ich which will give the fish a better chance of avoiding it.
Of course, I PLEAD with anyone who has ich to take the safe road and quarintine their fish for proper periods of times using proven methods. That being said, I realize that often times people either CAN'T, WON'T, or don't WANT to do this so it is important to cover what else may work.
 

hot883

Active Member
Originally Posted by Mikeyjer
Well, as far as I'm concerned, it cured my fish from ich. Numerous other people in this site would tell you the samething. Garlic brings up their immune system to fight off ich, that's probably a better way to put it. :happyfish
GARLIC CANNOT, WILL NOT, cure/kill ICH.. It strengthens the immune system, does not kill ich.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
A cut and paste from an article by Jorge Cortes, Jr regarding ich and garlic.....more research is needed.....
In a parasitic protozoan infestation similar to Marine Ich, there are usually two major insults to the host fish's physiology:
1. the gross tissue damage committed by the protozoans themselves;
2. and the secondary infections that crash the party.
The applicability of such a broad-spectrum antiseptic as contained in garlic towards fending off secondary infections should be obvious, so I will set aside secondary infections at this point. Allicin has been observed to suppress the efficacy of cysteine proteinase and alcohol dehydrogenase, two tissue-demolition agents produced by another protozoan parasite, Entamoeba histolytica, (Ankri et.al., 1997), and one can easily extrapolate how garlic medication might limit the invasive and predatory damage caused directly by C. irritans.
Still, what generates as much (if not more) speculation is not the ability of garlic to restrict damage, but rather garlic's apparent ability to deliver damage to the parasites themselves -with numerous claims of outright detachment of C. irritans trophonts (the burrowing protozoans) and tomonts (the "egg cysts") as a result.
The aforementioned ability of allicin to permeate tissue and mucus enables it to invest an afflicted area thoroughly with its partially sulfurous chemical signature. The potential is there to mask the chemical cues that enable a parasite's recognition of the host, potentially confusing the invader and further suppressing the havoc it wreaks. (Indeed this would help uninfested fish dodge "Marine Ich").
Definitely, allicin brings outright chemical assault to the parasite. In one test, allicin’s cytotoxicity fell heavily against the parasitic protozoans Trypanosoma spp. and Giardia lamblia in concentrations that were well within the tolerance of 'host-tissue' fibroblasts (Lun et.al., 1994). The same penetrating power that ensures thorough investiture of the contested tissue with protective and camouflaging agents can also ensure thorough delivery of allicin's antagonism to --indeed, into-- invading parasites.
Lastly (though certainly, other properties may yet be discovered), allicin is said to reinforce the cues for cellular apoptosis, the mechanism of programmed cell-death (Thatte et.al., 2000). An innate mechanism such as apoptosis, guided with care, has the potential to severely limit the spread of say, cancer, by motivating cancerous cells to quickly self-terminate before they can multiply. If such a 'scorched earth' defense can be triggered by an infestation episode and be guided/reinforced by allicin, then yet another way may be revealed how garlic hinders both the ability of parasites to feed on host tissue and any opportunity for secondary infections to spread.
So roughly, garlic therapy can potentially
1. fend off secondary infection;
2. neutralize the chemicals used by the parasite to destroy host tissue;
3. mask host tissue, making it difficult for the parasite to recognize it;
4. deliver outright damage to the parasite.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
UV strelizers will marginally improve water quality and that is about it. At best, the window for their effectiveness in combatting/preventing ich is quite small.
Money is better spent on additional live rock and/or a top of the line protien skimmer.
Flow rates are simply too fast and exposure time inadequate to kill/denature parasite. Even the turbo twist uv's are little more than a thrill ride for the parasites. if you slow flow rates down...it would take weeks to cycle the water in the system.
Waste of money unless you are using it for marginal water quality improvement., which can be accomplised with other more efficient equipment.
UV's can be effective but not on a single system . Those that are effective are on l mutiple systems with no tank "decor". The live rock and substrate provide many areas for the parasites to thrive and they WILL not get cycled through the UV....but most if not all simply slide right through unharmed. due to flow rates/exposure time.
There is no need for a uv on a well maintained closed marine system.
 
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