Ich...

bloke

bloke

Member
DT tank is empty except for a few inverts. The QT has ALL the fish in it.
I bought some meds to put in the QT to kill the ich.
I bought a test kit along with it only to realize that the box says to raise the copper to a level of 0.15-.020 and the test kits lowest reading is 0.25.
When I went back in to ask, I was told that you actually want to keep the level
tween 1.0 - 2.0. I even went to our local reef club website forum and one there suggested 1.7-2.0
Is that right? I looked over the web to find other people to see if their directions were consistent, but i can't find anything printed that says to keep levels that high.
Additionally, I was told to treat for merely 1-2 weeks. But I thought that the Ich parasite would remian in my DT for up to 4 weeks looking for a host and would take that long before finally dying off. I'm sure that more time is ALWAYS better to make certain that the tank and fish are both healthy.
Any thoughts?
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Whew you asked a mouthful. ...
Lemme start with your test kit. I suspect from what you describe that you bought a Seachem test kit. Seachem's kit operates on a higher scale because it's designed to work with Seachem's copper product, Cupramine. Cupramine is "amine" copper and is designed to work in higher concentrations, hence the higher scale.
As for your copper levels, the instructions with your copper solution seem to be consistent with a bottle of Chleated (did I spell that right) copper. I'd go with that. The problem is that there are different types of copper... Chleated, Ionic, Amine, etc, and all have different treatment levels, all are ineffective at too low a dose and highly toxic at too high, so follow the instructions for your product, and get a test kit that reads the range you require. Also find out what "flavor" of copper you have an make sure your test kit reads that type, as different test kits won't work on copper they weren't designed for.
Finally, The reason copper has a shorter treatment period is that they can kill the parasite during more stages of life than hyposalinity or fallow tanks can, so it works quicker.
Personally, if you aren't experienced with copper, I'd recommend using hypo only to treat your fish. I used to bash it, but it works well when administered properly.
 
bloke

bloke

Member
The copper I bought is: SeaCure containing Copper Sulfate and Citric Acid
the test kit I bought indeed measures Cu. I bought the orange box Aquarium Pharmiceuticals, Inc (your typical drops and tube test).
But again, the SeaCure calls for levels of .15-.20 while the test kit's lowest measurable level is 0.25. When I asked about getting a different test kit, I was told by the LFS that I should raise the levels to 1.5-2.0.
AND, I know that copper works faster, but the lifecycle of the Ich does not change. My DT will still need to be fallow for 4 weeks right?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Is that QT newly set up for this emergency? Might you consider hyposalinity?
Check on the topics on ich and hyposalinity in the FAQ Thread at the top of this forum.
 
bloke

bloke

Member
Yes - This QT is set up for this emeregency.
I am lowering the gravity to 1.010 and raising the temperature to low 80's in addition to the copper.
This is what the LFS has suggested. I know the horror stories of LFS, but mine has usually guided me in the right direction.
If I was 100% though I would not have come to this oracle :)
Tell me...
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Copper is effective in shorter time periods because it can kill the parasite during a wider time window than the hypo.
So the answer is yes, hypo should still be conducted for 4-6 weeks, Copper can kill in a two week period.
Okay, so you bought a seacure copper treatment and you have an AP test. It doesn't change what I'm saying. I know that when I originally started doing copper treatments, I bought an AP test and it could not register ANY of the copper solutions I tried, and one of the things I couldn't get it to register was copper sulfate.
When you are dealing with copper, you are dealing with an incredibly small range of effectiveness. As stated earlier, too much will kill your fish, so I strongly suggest that if you want to play with copper, you get something a little better than a bottom-of-the-line kit like the AP kit. I'd use FasTEST or Salifert over anything else.
As for the difference in scale, what you are talking about is a difference in the types of coppers like I was talking about before. The type of copper you have, as you stated is copper sulfate. This is known as an ionic copper. The perfect world target amount of this is .15ppm. The LFS and web site you visited are talking about using Chelated coppers, which have a target effectiveness of about 1.7ppm (about 10 times the amount of ionic).
Where you are going to go wrong here is that you have ionic copper and a test kit calibrated (scaled) for Chelated copper. Since chelated copper is designed to be applied in the 1.0+ range, the AP test you have only starts at .25ppm. Also, you will find that the AP test does not register any measurement for your copper since it's not designed to read ionic copper. If you had continued in this manner and followed your LFS's advice, you'd have overdosed and killed your fish. The LFS wasn't wrong per se, but they failed to establish what type of copper you were working with before they told you what level to use.
So, your choices are get yourself a new copper solution that is Chelated, or get a new test kit designed to read your type of copper, or forget copper and go with another method, notably hyposalinity in your QT system.
Your hyposalinity alone should kill the ich provided you have the means to accurately measure your salinity, I.E. a refractometer.
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Dunno if you caught it, but FasTEST and Salifert are some really good ones. I've not used the Salifert copper myself, but I have found the FasTEST to be accurate if you can differentiate the colors of the various levels which can be tricky. You might wanna open boxes in the LFS and choose one that looks good to you.
 
bloke

bloke

Member
Well, let me ask one more question.
Regardless of how fast the fish are cured of their Ich, the DT still needs to remain fishless for at least 4 weeks right?
The guy at the LFS told me 7-10 days, but I've never heard of that before!
The last thing I want to do is reacclimate my fish to get them reinfected! Shouldn't I want longer than 7-10 days to make certain that the Ich has run it's ifecycle and that there are no freeswimmers looking to infect my fish?
It would seem to me that more time would only benefit and rushing them back into the tank would be a BAD idea.
Your thoughts?
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Ich treatments should be run as LONG as possible before it causes detrimental health to the fish.
I've never had an ich outbreak in my reef system (knock on wood!!!!) so I've never had to fallow a system before. I had it in my FOWLR system so I just hypo'd the tank and isolated the inverts (couple larger hermits and an urchin).
That said, I have researched from what I consider to be very authoritative sources that fallowing a tank should be done for at least 3-4 weeks. One who agrees with that is Bob Fenner, who is about as expert as they come.
If you are doing copper, here is what I'd do...
1. Fallow the main system.
2. Hypo the QT
3. Optionally copper the QT
4. At two weeks, do a 100% water change in the QT to drop copper, and use a poly filter in the QT's filtration to remove any leeched copper from the filter, fish, tank, etc.
5. At four weeks, beging raising SG of the QT by no mor ethan .003 per day until you get to the DT's SG.
6. Reintroduce the QT fish to the DT.
 
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