Ich?

[stangracer85]

Alright im still new at this but i have noticed the last few days that two of my fish might have ick. I dont have another qt let alone catch them. I have a 29 gal. reef tank. I have a fire shrimp as he apprears to me just fine but he hides all the time until night time. I have a small puffer, mandrin and one clown. Ive only noticed the spots on the tail of my mandrin and the tail of my puffer. What can i do do get these guys better. I do have test kits and the buffers and what not. Is there anything i can get that i can treat these guys safely in the dt without harming my corals or inverts?

 

[renogaw]

the only two choices you have are these if you really want to cure your fish with the least amount of stress to them:
1) empty your tank of all the rock and inverts and hypo your tank.
2) spend a whopping $30 and get a QT and hypo the QT.
your mandarin does not have ich, it is more likely to be sand in it's mucus covering. everything else needs to be hypoed.

 

[stangracer85]

Thanks for the response. Alright i have an extra 25 gallon tank that i can use for my QT. What kind of water must i fill it with and what all does it need. Can i use the filter from my dt or should i get another filter? Is there a link that explains this "hypo" treatment?

 

[renogaw]

the 25 would be perfect there's directions on how to set it up and how to do hypo (i'm following it right now lol) here:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by renogaw
the only two choices you have are these if you really want to cure your fish with the least amount of stress to them:
1) empty your tank of all the rock and inverts and hypo your tank.
2) spend a whopping $30 and get a QT and hypo the QT.
your mandarin does not have ich, it is more likely to be sand in it's mucus covering. everything else needs to be hypoed.

Where do you get $30 for a QT tank? I got lucky and got a 20 gal tank at the ***** sale for $20 (normally $40). The cheapest pump you can find for a 20 gal. is $20. A heater to keep the temp constant, another $15 minimum. Since the fish/fishes have to be in the QT for at least 6 weeks, you need a light, another $25 - $30. Unless you already have that stuff around, you're looking at spending at least $100. Then after the QT is complete, you have two tanks to maintain.
My new Tang has picked up ich, and I'm trying the organic Ich Attack to see if it will get rid of it. Yes, I've read the multiple threads about how this stuff isn't proven, and supposedly won't kill the ich in my DT. After three days of the treatment, all the spots on the Tang are gone. I'm supposed to continue the treatment for at least a week to insure it doesn't come back. So has it gotten rid of the ich in my DT? Who knows? If it does come back, is it because I didn't keep my fish out of my tank for 6 weeks, or because another new livestock (fish, coral, LS, LR) I buy two months later brought it in? I've also read the debates about how ich is always present in a tank, and a breakout occurs due to stress on the fish. Bottom line, unless you have a fully established tank where you are not adding any new fish, coral, LS, or LR, your DT can be susceptible to ich or any other disease. People here will argue that if you QT all your new livestock for 3 weeks, you can keep diseases out of your DT. However, I've read that corals can harbor ich. How do you know a coral has ich? It's won't have spots, or move around the tank 'scratching' itself. So unless I QT a new coral for at least 6 weeks (the time it takes to kill off ich), instead of the standard QT time of 3 weeks, I could easily be introducing ich into my DT. In an enclosed ecosystem like a saltwater aquarium, diseases are inevitable. You can QT all you want, but you can't be 100% sure that new species you add isn't harboring some dormant disease.

 

[renogaw]

you can buy a presetup kit at ***** walmart or target for $30 and just throw out the freshwater stuff it comes with.
and trust me, there's almost no maintenance to a quarantine tank. sure beats spending money on stuff that may or may not work, or better yet, it sure as heck beats risking his existing fish

 

[rudedog40]

That $30 freshwater presetup tank is only 10 gal. For this person who only has 3 small fish, that may be OK for short term. But what does the guy who has a 200 gal. DT with 6 - 8 large fish (tangs, clowns, triggers, etc.) do? They're expected to put all these fish in a 10 gallon tank for 6 weeks? Also, how can you say there's no maintenance to a QT? A QT tank has to be cycled, and you have to insure the main chemical levels (trates, trites, ammonia, Ph, SG) stay constant. Not having done a hypo before, I know you have to drop the salinity from 1.025 range down to 1.009. When you do this, doesn't it kill off all the necessary bacteria in a tank? If it does, don't you have to cycle the tank again once the hypo is complete? What exactly do you do with a QT tank when you're done QTing a sick fish or new livestock? You just burn extra electricity for a tank that has nothing but water and a couple of pieces of PVC in it?

 

[renogaw]

yes. gah hit the wrong button.

 

[renogaw]

That $30 freshwater presetup tank is only 10 gal. For this person who only has 3 small fish, that may be OK for short term.
--well, what's the real point of a QT? to put the fish in before it goes to the DT right? so there should be only 1 fish in it at a time.
But what does the guy who has a 200 gal. DT with 6 - 8 large fish (tangs, clowns, triggers, etc.) do? They're expected to put all these fish in a 10 gallon tank for 6 weeks?
--see answer above. if someone uses the QT before putting the fish in the DT, those 6-8 fish won't have any need to be in there.
Also, how can you say there's no maintenance to a QT? A QT tank has to be cycled, and you have to insure the main chemical levels (trates, trites, ammonia, Ph, SG) stay constant.
--once it's cycled, all you gotta do is put in some flake food or something to keep the bacteria alive. yes... you do have to deal with sg and ph. is that maintenance above and beyond anything?
Not having done a hypo before, I know you have to drop the salinity from 1.025 range down to 1.009. When you do this, doesn't it kill off all the necessary bacteria in a tank?
--no, it doesnt.
If it does, don't you have to cycle the tank again once the hypo is complete?
-- see answer above.
What exactly do you do with a QT tank when you're done QTing a sick fish or new livestock? You just burn extra electricity for a tank that has nothing but water and a couple of pieces of PVC in it?
-- you leave it running. turn off the light, or leave it on. seriously, it will use less electricity than your fridge.

 

[renogaw]

oh, also... benefits from keeping it running:
can add a fish to it without having to recyle it.
can buy a fish at any time you want.
if you have aggression in the tank from new additions you can put the aggressor in the qt
if a fish gets sick (swim bladder problem, popeye, etc) you can put it in the tank immediately.

 

[renogaw]

OH another benefit to a cycled qt:
i had to put all my fish in my qt while changing out my DT due to a leak. i had: 3 chromis, 1 kole tang, 2 percs, 1 firefish, 1 mandarin, 30 hermits, 30 snails, 4 crabs, 1 pistol shrimp, 2 peppermints, etc in my 20 gallon qt for 4 days.

 

[rudedog40]

I can agree with a majority of your comments, but I still say a 10 gal tank is insufficient for someone who has several large livestock in their DT. Every ich post I've read stated to kill ich in a DT, it has to run fishless for 6 weeks, unless you hypo the DT. You don't think putting all your fish in a 10 gal. tank for 6 weeks wouldn't stress them out, possibly causing more harm than good?
QTing any new fish doesn't 100% guarantee they don't have some dormant disease. Just look at the number of ich threads the last couple of days in this forum. You're saying all these ich breakouts are the result of people not QTing new livestock? I think one guy got an ich attack in a 4 year old established tank. Having a QT tank has it's benefits as you have stated (emergency repairs on DT). I just think that in regards to ich, it's an inevitable disease that eventually hits any tank. If you catch ich early enough on any one fish, then I agree sticking that one fish in a QT is a way to go. But yanking out every fish in a large DT for 6 weeks, possibly causing more harm than good, is a little extreme.

 

[renogaw]

there is no way someone can spontaneously get ich.
so yes, all these ich posts are because people do not qt their new arrivals (whether it is fish or corals, or swapping sand etc).
qt'ing may not 100% guarantee you are correct. but, if a fish is qt'ed for 3-4 weeks, i'd bet it is 95% guarantee. especially if you know and understand the ich cycle.
10 gallon might not be all that great for the bigger tanks, but this guy does have a 29 gallon reef. so... go buy a $40 qt setup if you have a bigger tank.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
I just think that in regards to ich, it's an inevitable disease that eventually hits any tank.
i seriuosly hate this myth. it just goes to show how misunderstood and how much denial there is about ich.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by renogaw
there is no way someone can spontaneously get ich.
so yes, all these ich posts are because people do not qt their new arrivals (whether it is fish or corals, or swapping sand etc).
qt'ing may not 100% guarantee you are correct. but, if a fish is qt'ed for 3-4 weeks, i'd bet it is 95% guarantee. especially if you know and understand the ich cycle.
10 gallon might not be all that great for the bigger tanks, but this guy does have a 29 gallon reef. so... go buy a $40 qt setup if you have a bigger tank.

So is it 3 weeks or 6 weeks? I've read you have to keep a DT tank fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks to kill off any ich living in the tank. I can see that if you're adding a new fish, you would see an outbreak of ich in 3 weeks, but corals, LS, and LR? I've never heard of anyone QTing LR or LS for 3 weeks before putting it in a DT. And again, how would you know coral has ich? If ich has a justation period of 6 weeks, then wouldn't you want to QT everything you put in your DT for that period of time?

 

[renogaw]

a new arrival should be qt'd for a minimum of 3 weeks. if there's no sign of anything by then, there's a great chance there's nothing. i've qt'ed 10 fish, and my gramma is the first fish that had any problems with ich (i'm battling it now in the qt).
if there is ich in the display tank, the tank needs to be fallow for a minimum 42 days (no fish in there). this is the longest recorded life cycle of an ich outbreak from the various 4 stages of an ich's life.
corals should technically be qt'ed for 3 weeks, but i am guilty of not doing this myself. but, if you know who you get the coral from, and you know that person has no ich in his/her system, then there's no chance for corals to carry ich.
Sand definitely should be qt'ed for 3 weeks imo if you get it from anywhere but a bag, and i've done this personally. the time frame the parasite incubates in the sand is 28 days max (i believe, can check this out). once it leaves the sand it needs a host, if it doesnt find a host it dies.
i don't know if ich can live on rock, beth/sep can comment on that.

 

[rudedog40]

So you're saying that if I get my DT stabilized to where I don't add any new livestock (fish, corals, LS, (LR?)), I'll never have to worry about ich, or any other type of fish disease?
And by chance I do add something new, 3 weeks in a QT is adequate, even though ich in itself has a justation period of 6 weeks?
As far as where you get your coral, I doubt there's a LFS out there that can 100% guarantee their coral tanks are ich free. Technically they should be if that's all that they keep in the tank. But what about buying online? Who knows the condition of those tanks.
So based on this information, I say 3 week QT is a fallicy. If you want to be 100% sure you're not 'infesting' your DT with any type of disease, you should QT any new livestock for at least 6 weeks. Gotta luv this hobby!!

 

[renogaw]

[So you're saying that if I get my DT stabilized to where I don't add any new livestock (fish, corals, LS, (LR?)), I'll never have to worry about ich, or any other type of fish disease?
-- yes--maybe popeye or swim bladder problems, but never ich.
And by chance I do add something new, 3 weeks in a QT is adequate, even though ich in itself has a justation period of 6 weeks?
-- no, ich has a 42 day life cycle. it's only on the fish for 7 days of that time period after it infects the fish. it can be in the water for 1-2 days. so technically, you could QT a new fish for only 10 days just to be on the safe side if you are only worried about ich. the three weeks is usually the qt time because most people suggest 3 weeks between adding fish to the DT for biological issues.
As far as where you get your coral, I doubt there's a LFS out there that can 100% guarantee their coral tanks are ich free. Technically they should be if that's all that they keep in the tank. But what about buying online? Who knows the condition of those tanks.
--this is why you technically should QT corals, but mainly softies such as mushrooms. i think this is a new idea though. you also should QT corals for flatworms as well.
So based on this information, I say 3 week QT is a fallicy. If you want to be 100% sure you're not 'infesting' your DT with any type of disease, you should QT any new livestock for at least 6 weeks. Gotta luv this hobby!!
--the 6 week fallow is because you don't know what the life cycle stage the ich is in. if you cover the whole life cycle, then technically all the ich should die off 1-2 days after it hatches from the sand.

 

[renogaw]

btw, stan i realize we've gone away from your original question, but hopefully you can take some of this info as well

 

[sepulatian]

Rudedog and Renogaw, this thread is not yours. I respectfully request that you either give some positive input for Stangracer85 or argue via PM. Stangracer, the mandarine can stay. You only have to hypo the puffer and clown. I am concerned that this qt has not cycled yet. How bad is the ich? Get the qt running and cycling. If the ich is not that bad yet, then dose all of the food with FRESH garlic. Let the qt cycle as much as you can. If you have any LR rubbel or small pieces then add it to the qt. Use the filter pads from the display, add a few cups of sand from the display. Try to get as much biological filtration in there that you can. Mix a whole lot of water. I would get another trash can to mix in. You may be doing daily changes. I am so sorry, but it is the price that you pay for not quarantining fish.