I'm so close to just giving up!!!!!

[coralfishg2]

I'm getting tired of this. I have lost so many corals, and fish, and just through away so much money. it seems that everything that I do it just backfires. two weeks ago I added a refugium to my tank. all the plumbing worked out great and it seemed like everything was working great. but sinse then my tank has been cloudy. it was very clear before that. right now, as of 10 minutes ago my water peramiters are ph-8.4, ammonia-0, nitaite-0, nitrate-80, salenity-1.023. Since my tank has been up and going I have had a problem with my nitrate's, that was the main reason for the refugium. the only thing that I can think that cloudiness is from is the refugium. I have grape calapara in there, with a little blade calapara. the main thing that I am consered about in there is the sand that I am using for it. I used regular play sand, everyone that I talked to said that regular play sand whould be fine for this pourpous. they said that even if it had silca in it, that was fine, that it whould just premote algea bloooms in the refugium. I really need to know what to do. I am on my last straw with this tank, I am so close to just seeling the hole system. one other thing is that I just added some xinia, that some had givin to me, they are not at all active, and some have even shriveled up and died. some mushrooms that I have are also shriveled, and have not expanded fully since I added the refugium. someone please help. thank you

 

[chevron tang]

ok first off take a second and breath. i know how you feel. we've all been there when first starting up a tank. the reason your tank is cloudy is probably because of the sand from the refugium. did you rinse it off before you put it in there? the cloudiness should clear up in a few days. and yes a refugium should help with your trates. believe me patience is the BIGGEST virtue when keeping a saltwater tank. ask Predator.

 

[briansreeftank19660426]

you obviously had elements in your refugium that needed to be converted to nitrates... im sure your trates will come down.. but that is quite a spike for a refugium 80- wow. maybe 4 now u should disconnect from there.. save what u can..things were doing ok? b4 now all u can do is take the punch and hope ur still standing in 2 weeks.. and that u dont lose anymore. bottom line..

 

[chevron tang]

did you use a liquid test or a powder test? and what brand is the test? the reason i'm asking is because i know at one of our lfs i tested my trates and it said they were about 60-80 but that ended up not being the case. i got it tested somewhere else and it was much less. but if your xenias are dying you definitely may be having a problem. i wouldn't put anything else in the tank until you get the water right. you might want to do like a 20-30% water change.

 

[broomer5]

note:
deleted double post on this topic coralfishg2 .
makes it easier for all to reply and easier for you as well.
broomer

 

[coralfishg2]

thank you broomer, I don't know how that happen. as for the test I used a liquid test, called salt water master. at the bottom of the test it has a date of 1999, is this when that test was made? and to the question that was asked on the other post that was deleated. the water from the main tank (75gal) goes through an overflow down into the refugium. when the water first enter's the tank (20gal long) it is met by a chamber of bio balls from the original sump. I took them out and put them in this chamber. at the bottom of the chamber there is a piece of egg crate to keep all the bio balls in place and then directly below it there's a sponge that is also from the original sump. then the water flows through a small opening at the very bottom of this chamber into the main part, this is where the play sand is, this is the only part of the hole set up that this sand is in. in this area I have grape calapara, and a little blade calapara. I even have some small friends in there that resemble small snails, no exact id on these guys though. the calapara looks good, there is some small patches of white, but it is almost all green, someone told me that the white was just where it is growing. there is some red on some of the pieces also. after the water goes through this area it enter's another chamber that has my skimmer, and my return pump, the return pump is a rio 1700, I honestly do not know what the flow rate is. for your question cheveron, before I started everything up. I put the sand in the tank, and filled it with salt water. then a week later, I took all the water and dumped it out. that's when I started to build all the chambers in there. the following day I put all the sand back in the tank, and filled it back up with water. I hope this helps you guys out in figuring out my mistakes. thanks for any help <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />

 

[coralfishg2]

alright, like I said in the first post, I have had many problems so far on my quest for the best saltwater tank ever, lol, I know that will never happen, just figured I whould through it in, but about a a mounth and a half ago, I added my 45pds of live rock, that was cured, and 120pds of live sand. everyone said that it wouldn't but it did, the tank cycled. I lost prety much everything. the tank went through the cycle and everything was back to normal, all except for the nitate's. they never have been down where they should be. so I have not did a water change since then. when I added all of the live stuff, I did a 50% water change, but that was the last time. as for the test kit, it was bought about 7 months ago, when I started this venture

 

[bobber]

Your sand bed is very new to see any decline in nitrates. I agree that the nitrates shouldn't be where they are at. Have you had your water parameters checked by you lfs? They might be able to assist in finding the problem.
Another thing, everyone's tank is different and it takes time to learn about your tanks behavior. Stocking a tank should be done over time once you are sure of the tanks health. A new tank is VERY fragile and any changes made should be allowed at least a two week breakin period, followed by routine testing. Maybe I'm old school in my beliefs about that, but better that than spending alot of money on something you throw away two weeks later. Pateince is key, along with consistency. I'm not saying you are doing it all wrong, and I'd hate to see you banish the idea of keeping a saltwater tank. Just take a deep breath and relax. The cloudiness in your tank will clearup. Give it a few days. The white on your calpera is dieoff, not growth. The bioballs could be the source of your nitrate problem. You have plenty of biofiltration available through your LS and LR. The bioballs are not needed, IMO.
I hope I have been some help in your problems. Dont give up. Just learn from your mistakes and take things slowly. --Bob

 

[coralfishg2]

thanks to everyone that is trying to help me out. even though everything is going wrong with the tank, there is no way that i whould give up. there are to many people on this board that give me great motivation. so do you guys think that I should just take the bio balls out. if so should I do it slowly, or just take them all out at once. also do you guys feel that I should do a water change. or just let it be for a while and see what happens. also, do you guys think that the play sand in the tank is playing any role in the tank's clodiness. whould you have put something like that in your tank. thanks again to all.

 

[ren]

You said that about a month and a half ago you placed 120lbs of LS and 45 lbs LR into the tank along with a 50% water change? That would more than likely kick a cycle. And at a month and a half - it would just be getting over it. Standing would be a very young tank. Can you give a history on the tank from purchase?

 

[coralfishg2]

well it's gunna be long but here i go. I purchased the tank on july 12-2001. when I started, there was the tank, aqua clear skimmer, and sump-with 2 sponges and the bio balls, 20pds of base rock, crushed coral-100pds, 2 powerheads, regular floresent light's, an overflow to take the water from the tank to the sump, and a rio 1700 return pump. I used two yellow tailed damsels to cycle the tank. on august 10, I felt that my cycle was complete. all my test were great. at this time i was only planing on only keeping fish in the tank, but that didin't last long . on august 20, I added 25pds of live rock to the tank, there was nothing special about the rock, there was no color or anything, I got it from the lfs. On august 21, I made the most popular amature mistake, I added 3 pink tip condy anenemes, and a carpet anenemoe, what a mistake the carpet lasted two weeks, as for the condys, even without good light's, one lived for 4 months and the other one is still in the tank (what a mericle). by this thime I had added a yellow tang (which is still in the tank) and some veroious other fish. somewhere in all of this, the fish got ich, seeing as it was still gunna be a fish only tank, I used a copper based treatment to get rid of it, all was fine after that. not much happened until january of 2002, when I decided to make it a reef tank. I added my light's on january 21- 2-55w white, and 2-55w atinics- pc. I also added a cabbage leather, toadstool leather, some sun pulps, and some mushrooms. everything made the transition fine. at this point my water peramiter's were still ok, the only one that I was having any problems with was the nitrates, I attributed that to the crushed coral. after fighting to bring them down for a while. I decided to git rid of the crushed coral, so on febuary 19, I added 120pds of live sand. the way that I did this was, I took all of the water out of the tank, and put it in another tank, along with all of the live thing's that I had in it. I took the crushed coral out. and put the ls in. while I did this I also added another 45pds of lr. then I put 50% of the water back in the tank and made another 50% of fresh water. this is where everything went bad. my tank started to cycle. on febuary 23 I did a test, nitrite-.25, ammonia-8.2, nitrate-20, and ammonia-4.0. I took all of the corals to the lfs, but left the fish in the tank. on febuary 26, the ammonia was finally starting to come down. on febuary 27, I went to the pet store to check on everything, the only thing that was still living was the mushrooms, and a sea apple that I added some time in after the the tank fist cycled. on march 9th I did another test...ammonia-0, nitite's-0, ph-8.3, and nitrates-20. on march 10th I added the refugium. and the rest is history. I hope that I didin't lose you, I told you that it whould be long. I hope that helps <img src="graemlins//urrr.gif" border="0" alt="[urrr]" />

 

[coralfishg2]

also, the only coral's that I still have living is the mushrooms that don't look good at all, some pulsing xina, and sume button pulps. I lost the sea apple 3 days ago, he was looking to bad, so I had to get rid of him, as far as I know he did not expell his waste or anything like that, he never did look good after the 2 cycle.

 

[fshhub]

you used play sand, if it was aragonite, maybe it is partly dust you are seeing, i would never rinse it but that is my choice,and other do rinse, their choice, neither will husrt anything, but anyhow, do you have baffles in your sump/refugium?? if not and it is aragonite sand(play sand does NOT mean it is silica nor aragonite) and being so young, ti may be stirringup and blowing some back into your system, thus the cloudiness
the trates are high, especiallly for corals(fish only i would not worry to much), but your refugium is not going ot work over night, nor your dsb in the tank, but your bio balls definitely could have somethingto do with that too, remove them slowly adn with that and your dsb and refugium, then things should start to gradually decline
it may be a bit premature for corals yet, especially with everything being new(dsb, lr and refugium)i owuld definitely wait until you get the trates under control before continuing with corals,
taking out the cc definitely may have stirred up some more probs too(garbage which could = ammonia or nitrites too), and putting in lr(if mail ordered may have added as well), these definitely could kill corals and fish
the kit may be faulty, but having things die is an indication that somethingis wrong, maybe you could have ammonia or nitrites too if the kit were bad(test it against another source, like maybe take a sample to your lfs)
WHOA THERE!, your main prob with the inverts very well maybe the copper, which once it gets in is very difficult at best to remove form a tank, especially if you have lr and or any substrate,a dn if that is killing the inverts, there could also be part of the problem, they are dying and this could be adding to your problem with nitrates and fish, and if hte water is not good a tang is succeptible to ick, as are other fish, which either may have cotracted it in your set up or may have brought it in
even though it had no inverts, at the time(except anemones(which i am surprised lived this long, esp. with copper), you should not add copper, only to a fish only that is gonna stay that way, you pretty mcuh cannnot get rid of copper(especially wiht lr and substrate, even in just a glass tank, wiht nothing, it is extremely difficult) except by the use of chems which IMO are not good in an aquarium, and the anemones dying could be another problem all together
and using used water does not prevetn a cycle, at all
now one last question, what all is in your tank for fish and inverts?
HTH and i hope this does not sound like a lecture, but there are many things i can see wrong that could be either all or part of your problems, and you should know about them

 

[tvan]

On ecosystems aren't the bio balls used to filter out large particles(turn them into nitrates for the algee in time). I thought ecosystems where bio balls,live sand or mud, algee,and a high rate of flow????

 

[reeferx]

Can we rule out the water here? Are you using r.o.?
Also, like fshhub, I see the copper treatment as a red flag. Test?
All the moving around and massive water changes probably explain some of the cloudyness anyway.

 

[predator]

Well as far as the problem sounds like everybody pretty much covered it. But Chevron tang has got a point about the paitence as well as the thought about getting your water right. Take the timr to really know your tank. Do the suggested things such as using RO water, regular water changes, adding new stuff slowly. Learn what it takes to have good water quaility and maintain it. I rushed into this way of life awful fast and payed dearly. I have a coral grave yard right here on my desk at the house. Not to mention the fish I killed, remember all of them Chevron?.
I know how frustrating it is and what you are going threw. I had to slow down and learn about what I was doing. I had no idea how to care for the things I was buying. I just saw it, liked it, bought it and killed it. Now I have a beautiful, healthy and growing tank, with fish!!! It still feels funny saying it. Sorry for babbiling. I hope this helps.

 

[coralfishg2]

once again, thank you to everyone. I wish I could shake your hands. you guys have helped me out so much in the past, and I'm shure there will be many more times to come. unfortunatly, I am not using r/o yet, I haven't been able to afford it just yet. as for the copper in take? I am going to the pet store today to have it tested. lets all hope for the best. the tank is starting to clear up a little better now, I did a 10g water change yesterday. nitrates still are at the same level, hopefully there gunna start to drop. I took out about 10 of the bio balls this morning, and there is still about 40 more so, I should have them all out within two week's, I decided to take out 20 a week. Just so everyone know's there will not be another coral or fish to go into my tank, until I get the proper equipment, and I get alot of thing's under control. now mater how cute and cool they are! lol...thanks again to all, and I am open to any more suggestion's
ps. If any one want's to sell any used equipment, u know where to find me

 

[fshhub]

they can test for copper in the water, but it may not show so well, and it still be in the sand or the lr, theycan still hold it after it is gotten out of the water too(coper is a solid mineral, that does also leech, so it could be in both as well), just letting you know for future reference

 

[reeferx]

Hey coralfishg2,
Your lfs probably has r.o. water for sale. You should probably look into it until you can afford a unit. Of course, doing the math, it would probably be better down the road to take the hit now and buy the unit. Either way I would do one of the above.