I'm stressing here!!!

[jsb]

I bought a fish Sunday. It's a perfect Flame Angel. I love it. Sunday, and Monday he looked great. Last night when I got home I noticed white spots developing all over. :scared: Could he just be a little stressed, or is this ick? This is stressing me out. Ever since I added more LS to my tank months ago my fish have had these problems. I lost me Coral Beauty, and my Clown. My Cardinal, Watchman Gobie, were fine. I waited 4 months or so to let what ever my tank was going through to settle. Everything still appears to be okay, so I thought I'll add a fish...BOOM spots...The wife is going to kick my ars if this one dies. I think I might retire from the hobby for a while if I can't keep a fish. What's crazy is my cardinal is two years old. He's never had a problem. I've got nice Coraline growth, my star polyps look fantastic, no hair algea, a little micro algae. It seems just when everything looks good some thing happens. It's very discouraging.
Please advise on what you think the spots might be, and any words of encouragement.

 

[jsb]

Hey I just read another post about something similar.
Could my Cardinal or Goby be hosting ich, but not getting it. It seems like they never get sick but anything else that I put in gets sick. What about a clear shrimp as a possible host?

 

[dogstar]

JSB, I am one that beleives ICK ( sounds to me like thats whats wrong ) is alwys present in a tank with LR and LS and kept at a normal SG.
It will live on the bio micro life present at a substainable level or maybe in a dormant state until something is introduced that it can attack and thrive such as a new fish with a weakened immune system that can not fight it off like a healthy fish could. Even a fish that looks fine in the store could be weak but not show signs of Ick because the store keeps their SG low. You did not mention that you QTed the flame and without doing so you ofcourse run the chance of this happening. You may want to go ahead and QT it now with and do hypo and maybe FW dips and hope its not too late. Your other fish are probly healthy and the Ick can not effect them but consider that luck. I hope your tank is 50g or larger and packed with LR so the flame can hide in and cruse and feed from it. I dont think a cleaner shrimp will help in this case cause my Flame shows no intrest in my cleaners at all. But one cant hurt. Feed the Flame fourmula one and algea sheets and mysis shrimp.
I know this has not been very incourageing but I couldnt think of anything incourageing to say. Sorry, Just MO and hope someone can give you better news.

 

[ophiura]

I agree with the ick. Look into treatments including feeding garlic enriched foods (search for posts on Ick by Beth).
What you are describing is a classic timeframe. For example, when fish shipments come into an LFS, the peak mortality, IME, is 48-72 hours after they arrive. Once that adrenaline wears off, bam, that immune system just tanks and diseases set in.
Unless you QTd all of your fish in hypo, and even QTd, some would argue, your inverts then you have introduced ick into the system. I personally think it is sustained at low level infections - perhaps of the gills - that is not really notable and perhaps doesn't affect the fish to a great extent. For the most part, the immune system of a healthy, well fed, stress free fish keeps most of the parasite at bay. But add a stressor - temp spike, water quality, aggressive fish, new tank, whatever, and bammo the parasite sets in with avengence.
The significant thing is to find the stressor, IMO. In this case, it may be from being the new fish. I am in the middle of a situation where I hadn't added a fish in about 6 months (had 2). Added a coral beauty from an established tank and that thing was a beast. Chased everything...and sure enough, about 2 weeks later, bam...ick. My thought is that the angel was the stressor and removing it should help. So far it seems to be working (along with garlic), but I am not out of the woods any time soon. The angel was removed to a 10g for now and shows no additional signs of ick.

 

[jsb]

Dang it...Thanks for confirming my fear.
I've read Beths thread. I tried it last time this happened, but they died. Unfortunately my QT was damaged by my little boy, and I haven't replaced it yet. Therefore, no I didn't QT him. Can't I catch a break for once. I guess for now I'll lower my SG, and try some fresh water dips. My theory is that this just adds to his stress. Maybe I'll pick up some Kick Ich this time.
Thanks guys - JSB

 

[jsb]

Guess what guys...I just got home and I don't see any spots. There is something on his rear fin but I can't decide if it's a spot or not. So what does that mean. He's fighting the ick or what? I'll see if I can't snag a pic of him real quick.

 

[ophiura]

You DO NOT want to lower salinity in your main display tank, unless you want to risk your entire biofilter, LR, and all other invertebrate critters. Ick is a tricky beast though. Keep an eye out, do the garlic soaked food, and keep your fingers crossed :yes:

 

[jsb]

I wasn't going to go crazy with it, but I read that 1.020 was still safe. Is that true? Right now it's 1.023. I fed him Garlic soaked food last night. Maybe that's helping. BTW, I'm still working on that pic. He's quick, and my camera isn't catching anything but blurs.
Here we go.
one with a flash

 

[dhughesz28]

Your FA look awesome, wish I had one. As soon as I get 2 damsels out of my tank, I’m getting a flame!!
I don’t see any spots in the second pic.
This may sound crazy but…..I have noticed that on fish with clear fins like the tail on most flame angles, that when the fin is not fully flared out, is might seem like there are little white spots on it. But if you look close at the fin just after the fish spreads out his fins to swim, the spots go away. This happens with my two damsels all the time. I have watched them very close in the past and have noticed that when they are just hovering around and their tail fins are not fully spread, it looks like there are little white spots, but when they fully spread their tail to swim, the spots go away, I’m thinking that its just the overlapping tissue of the normally clear tail that you see in this case, not necessarily Ick. Just keep watching him, but it looks like he is doing great!! :jumping:

 

[ophiura]

1.020 is fatal to many invertebrates, and ineffective at warding off Ick. So it is, IMO, a no win situation.

 

[jsb]

Originally Posted by dhughesz28
Your FA look awesome, wish I had one. As soon as I get 2 damsels out of my tank, I’m getting a flame!!
I don’t see any spots in the second pic.
This may sound crazy but…..I have noticed that on fish with clear fins like the tail on most flame angles, that when the fin is not fully flared out, is might seem like there are little white spots on it. But if you look close at the fin just after the fish spreads out his fins to swim, the spots go away. This happens with my two damsels all the time. I have watched them very close in the past and have noticed that when they are just hovering around and their tail fins are not fully spread, it looks like there are little white spots, but when they fully spread their tail to swim, the spots go away, I’m thinking that its just the overlapping tissue of the normally clear tail that you see in this case, not necessarily Ick. Just keep watching him, but it looks like he is doing great!! :jumping:
Thanks. This is crazy. After I took those picks I looked at him before I went to bed, and he looked like he had a spot on his lower lip. Maybe a piece of sand or somthing, I don't. I'm keeping a close eye though.

 

[jsb]

Originally Posted by ophiura
1.020 is fatal to many invertebrates, and ineffective at warding off Ick. So it is, IMO, a no win situation.
Okay. I'm glad I verified first. I hate LFS's. I never can listen to them.
Can the spots come and go?
He ate like a food monster last night. So maybe he's going to be okay. My wife said she didn't see any spots on him this afternoon. I'll keep and update on him.

 

[jsb]

I'm still garlic soaking the food real good. He ate good again tonight, and no sign of the spots again. But as soon as I think I'm in the clear I have another scare. So I'll still assume the worse for a few more days.

 

[ophiura]

The typical lifecycle of ick will have the spots coming and going. Beth has a good review in the disease forum - one of the stickies at the top. So once the spots fall off, I believe you should not yet think you are in the clear...just that the parasite has moved on to the next stage of the life cycle (on a substrate) and then will end up back on the fish in 4 days or so if I recall. Anyway, keep doing what you are doing :yes:

 

[jsb]

I read Beth's article again.
Well it's been 4 days, since they spots have dissappeared. I don't see any sign of ick on him. I'm hoping we're in the clear. He's still eating great. He seems to have taken on an attitude of this is my tank. My other fish don't bother him, he's a great swimmer, and loves to flow all through my rock. My cleaner shrimp rides him every so often, and he doesn't seem to mind. Could this be the clearing in the clouds, or should I not get my hopes up yet. I'm thinking I should wait a couple more days before I say we have an all clear.

 

[ophiura]

I would wait a few more days...I'm in a similar boat at the moment. There are different thoughts on it. Some might say you'll never be out of the clear, others (me) would say that if the stress was just going into the tank and getting established, that the ick will clear (or at least clear to levels that are not noticable). If you address the stress, the fish can address the ick unless the outbreak was so severe it significantly compromised the fish. However, you do basically now have "ick in the tank" and welcome to the club. Because unless you QTd everything, including inverts and quite possibly rock and sand, you might have introduced it anyway. Keep your fish stress free, uncrowded and with a very good diverse diet. At this point, I would say that is the best treatment (JMO tho )

 

[itchy]

I too have a FA that for a few weeks kept showing signs of ich. At one point I thought I would loose her. I started soaking food in garlic and vitamins on a daily basis and now there are no signs of ICH 2.5 months out. I continue to soak foods with the garlic and vitamins as I believe strongly that this boost the fishes immune system and help them fight the parasite on their own. I do have cleaner shrimp as well so I am sure they contribute to the removal of the parasite as well. I have noticed that in the mornings I saw signs of the parasite and then by the afternoon they would disappear. (Someone else said they were having the same issue) I am all about acting and removing the fish if they look like they may become compromised but only after I have exhausted all other attempts. I don't think that fresh water dips do much to save the fish as they usually stress them more. There are some who say they have had good luck with this method but should only be used in extreme situations and as a last resort...JMO.
Keep using the garlic and Good Luck as it sounds as though it is helping. :happyfish

 

[scubadoo]

If your flame appears to be free of the spots you may experience a second wave. There is a way to attack the disease during this stage. You can perform a series of daily large water changes and careful vacumming of the substrate...especailly if you have cc. This will remove some of the swimmers and those hatching/dwelling in the substrate. The water changes must be done carefully keeping stress to a minimum This is a simple timing game...it may not be effective...it may be...all depends on timing.
Fish with healthy strong immune systems can usally kick the disease. Perhaps your flame has now recovered from the stress and his immune system has strengthened.
IMO...Kick-Ich does little if anything to kill parasites. The only two proven methods for killing parasites are hyposalinity and copper...each having pros and cons. UV's have a very narrow and very limited window in which they are effective against the disease.

 

[jsb]

What other vitamins are recommended for soaking for in. Right now I'm only using the Kents Garlic extreme.
I'm putting together a large water charge for this weekend, and I did do a little vacuuming Sunday, but very little.
Thanks - JSB.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by JSB
What other vitamins are recommended for soaking for in. Right now I'm only using the Kents Garlic extreme.
I'm putting together a large water charge for this weekend, and I did do a little vacuuming Sunday, but very little.
Thanks - JSB.
Selcon is a good marine vitamin & Zoe.