initial cycle help plz

[sgt__york]

Gosh, I feel like a damsel again... I have a 75 gal I had setup for 4yrs, that i took offline about 2.5 yrs ago. I recently started the tank up again and 'should' be well past my initial cycle.
I just went out of town for 2 weeks. When I left, Nitrite levels were 0 (had already spiked) however, I was having an ammonia spike. I figure - leave it alone, 2 wks would be a good time to let everything resettle and I can get to work when I get home.
Here's the problem.. (setup is below)
1) I still have low level ammonia!!
2) Algea or bacteria covering the tank! I'm not sure if it's simply green algea, or sino bacteria or both. I suspect algea. Everywhere that light hits, has a low level dusting of brown - of which some is turning green now. The entire front glass is covered (can still see in, but it's a think layer of brown is on every inch) as is the rock (of which one piece is definately more green than the others) and even the tops of powerheads, and exposed white pvc.
Current Levels:
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5-10
Phosphate: .4
Salinity: 1.024
*Water made using Aquarium Pharmaceutical's tap water purifier (d/i filter cartridge)
Brief History of Activity:
Day 1 - full setup - water; pumps; 40lbs of base rock (no life) (NO LIGHTS YET)
Day 2 - add 7 damsels & 20 lbs of live rock (fiji)
Day 3 - Water Test: ammonia .25/ Nitrite 0 / Nitrate 0
Day 3 - fish died - was weak front start - went straight into hiding (6 damsels now)
Day 4 - Water Test: ammonia 2 / Nitrite .25 / Nitrate 0
Day 6 - Water Test: ammonia 1.5 / Nitrite 1 / Nitrate ?
Day 8 - Water Test: ammonia .5 / Nitrite 5 / Nitrate ?
Day 8 - * got protein skimmer working (Excaliber hang-on up top)
Day 11 - Water Test: ammonia .25 / Nitrite .25 / Nitrate 10
Day 12 - Fish died - due to harrassent by others (5 damsels now)
Day 13 - * LIGHTS ADDED - 4 VHO - 10.5hrs (blue actenics) and 7hrs (white actenics) daily on timers
Day 17 - added 20lbs of live rock (fiji)
Day 17 - water Test: ammonia 4 / Nitrite 0 / Nitrate 20
** This perplexed me - as I had expected the end of the cycle given the nitrites have fallen to 0. I "SUSPECT" the ammonia spike was due to an overfeeding in showing someone how to feed the fish before leaving out of town & the introduction of new rock.
** I go out of town for 2 wks (person feeding the fish did so only every 4 days (2 pieces of flake food) - i let the fish eat off the rock and did not want overfeeding to occur)
Day 35 (today) - Water Test: (see current levels above) & stated problems.
I highly suspect the "LIGHTS" are the reason for the algea (or bacteria) growth. I also suspected phosphates in the water. I had expected a much higher level of Nitrates - but they are not above 10 yet.
I realize after an initial cycle (which was accelerated by the addition of cured live rock) you do a 50% water change - which I am getting ready to do. However, I did not think this brown that covers the entire glass, crushed rock/shell substrate and rock is suppose to be so quick and covering.
THE AMMONIA - WHY????
Even if something on the rock was dying off - and low levels of ammonia appeared wouldn't that stimulate growth of bacteria to handle that so that it would returnto 0? I have YET to reach ammonia level of 0. Nitrite is CLEARLY 0.
In addition, the filters on the powerheads have a lot of debree on them (if this is a sign of anything). I thought that these were suppose to be sponge filters to primarily prevent fish from getting sucked into a powerhead - not serve as a filter area or debree collection. Is it common to have to take these out and rinse them? If so, how often? I'm wondering if their housing of debree is causing low level ammonia levels. Could the small fish that died "THREE" wks ago STILL be causing nagging ammonia levels?
I was expecting to do a 50% water change; see ammonia levels of 0; have fun catching the damsels, and return them to the LFS for some fish i REALLY wanted (couple wrasps and a tang). Wait a couple weeks to confirm water testings, then head back to start on some coral - maybe a green star polyp. Now i'm perplexed.
Well, i think i have given all the info I can. If someone can please help me identify where i am, and where i go from here it would be MUCh appreciated. In doing my water change, and cleanup - how much do i scrub or use a powerhead to blow off the rock and stir everything up? In cleaning the glass, do i stir everything up as well? In vacuming the substrate - if the brown does not readily come off, then what? Or is it a matter of just getting a ton of crabs/snails? If some of the brown is sino - do i treat the tank chemically? Tons of questions, hope ya'll have more insight than I have right now.

 

[hondo]

Personally I don't think you have a problem here. The brown is more than likely a diatom bloom which is a normal part of the cycle. While you have 80lbs of total rock you only have 40lbs of LR which is a little on the light side as it seems to take base rock quite a while to be as efficient as LR, may want to add another 20lbs or so as time and $$$ allow. you didn't mention a clean up crew, do you have one yet. If not I would recomend getting one. diversity is the key here. Try scarlet hermits 10 (stay away from all other hermits), trochas snails 10, cerith snails 10, nassarius snails 10, other good snails are margaritas and astreas although they are frustrating as they fall over and drown themselves if you aren't right there to help them turn over (you would think evolution would have corrected that defect by now). Too early for a cucumber and emerald and sally lightfoot crabs are always a risk. I personally have both and have never had a problem with either but so many people do have problems you would have to consider them risky.You can also expect a algae bloom right after the diatoms go away and your clean up crew will help with that.
As for the amonia it could still be die off from the LR and if you don't have a clean up crew then it could also be from fish waste as there is not much in the tank to clean up detrius. I am always skeptical of people saying their tank should be compltely cycled in a week or two it seems to always take my tanks much much longer to cycle and depending on how fast you add bioload the cycling process continues long after the initial cycle as the bacteria will increase based upon it's food source. It's not like it grows out all at once and never changes.

 

[sgt__york]

Hondo,
Thanks for ur info. The diat bloom i'm likely experiencing - what is to be done about it right now? Does the cleanup crew take care of it? Although most water changes are 10-20%, I thought a large water change (50%) was usual after an initial cycle? What about using a power head to blow the rocks and clean them? The LFS said to do this, but i have read in the past that doing that to rock often makes the problem WORSE - as you send everything throughout the tank and often trigger more rapid growth.
(Assuming a constant bio load) Regarding the cycle - I was under the impression the cycle is ended when Nitrites spike and then return to 0 - signifying enough bacteria has been grown to convert the ammonia to nitrate. My problem seems to be Nitrites did that, but ammonia spiked and has never gotten below .25 (never higher either) but thus far, never 0.
I do only have 40lbs of actual Live Rock (which was cured about 3 months at the LFS before it came home - so they said and seems to be) BUT i have 4.5 gal of bio balls as well (more than enuf for a 75 gal).
I'm feeling reassured about the diatom blood, and algea bloom that is begining now (just need to know what to do about it.. lol ) BUT, the ammonia thing really has my goat. Just doesn't make sense to me. IF fish waste in the form of detrius in the substrate was causing it - wouldn't it still trigger more bacteria to be grown to handle it THUS reducing it to 0? UNLESS the 'source' is growing at a faster rate than the bacteria is being grown? I can't figure out what SOURCE there would be tho.
I guess i'm also semi-ammonia-paranoid because when i had this tank setup in the past i ALSO had a lagging ammonia prob that has me wondering if it's the setup somehow or just coincidence.

 

[hondo]

I know what you mean about wanting to do something about the diatom bloom as it looks pretty bad. Other than getting a clean up crew you could hand wash all the rocks (make sure you use salt water). I did this the last time I set up a tank as I couldn't stand looking at the brown stuff. As for the amonia it is possible for the detrius to be the cause as that would be alot of gunk but also make sure your test is accurate as I have had some tests that always showed a trace and the water was fine.

 

[fshhub]

in our first tank, we used dead or not live rock, and until it became live, we had problems for months with stability, the lr and sand help greatly in maintaing stability and if you have as much unlive rock or more than you have lr, then i would guess this could very well be part of your problem, in addition to the fact that the lr that was added most recently may not have cured completely before you added it
IMO the tank will never complete cycling until it reaches a state of balance(as anthem would say it), which includes making the other rock and maybe substrate live
HTH

 

[hondo]

forgot about the CC. Of course the LFS said it was good as they tell everybody that (otherwise they would never sell the stuff). Beleive me every one of us who started on LFS advice started with CC. It can work it just needs some maintenance as it will trap detrius and cause problems. DSB on the other hand has less chance of trapping large particals and your sand bed creatures easily take care of small particals. I started with CC and had it for over a year before I got tired of cleaning it and made the switch to DSB. One other thing, you only need 3 to 3.5 inches of sand bed if you use a fine grade of sand. Some people say 4 to 6" but that is over kill IMHO. And don't forget that the sand does just as good a job as LR as filtering water.

 

[kev]

Just a thought... have you ever tried Cycle? I've used this in all my tanks and it will really help your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates all go down quicker. Its NOT a chemical, its just the live bacteria that a SW tank needs to cycle. Its a really great product in my opinion and I suggest you try it. I don't know what others will think on this, but its always worked for me.

 

[sgt__york]

thanks for the advice.. and re CC vs DSB..i'm not quite as concerned about the substrate right now. As i see it, both her proc/cons. DSB helps w/nitrates, but offers NO buffering and requires a lot more activity in the form of sifters/dwellers. The Argonite buffers the tank real well and cleanup crew (crabs) can help w/the detris, but offers no nitrate assistance. HOWEVER - both are inorganic and do NOT "CREATE" nitrate - only an environment in which to convert or dissolve it. It is still the bio-load that creates the waste - not the CC or sand. Seems like there are 2 camps on this ideology of live sand, and it may be a mute point anyway - as I understand that argonite (or cc) eventually dissolves to smaller sand particles anyways. I have the argnoite now, and will likely stick with it for awhile. I'll consider the sand after awhile.
BESIDES, i'm planning on doing a sand bed in the 20 gal macro-algae refugium anyways - in the specialty tank for handling that will serve as a nitrate filter.
The MAIN PROBLEM I am having is this low level ammonia (.25) the seems to be persisting.
As i see it, it has to come from 1) fish; 2) life on the LR; or 3) decomposition. I do not think 5 small damsels in a 75 gal is worth the consideration - given 40lbs of live rock AND 4.5 gal of bio-balls (enough to handle a 180gal tank). And even if it WERE die off on the LR "OR" decomposition - it seems to me this low level 'should' stimulate additional bacteria to be grown to handle thus returning it to 0.
I've had one person tell me in larger tanks it is quite common to have a low level of ammonia as it represents the 'creation' of ammonia. That if the ammonia levels were truly 0 you would have either "instantaneous conversion" or no bio load at all (ie, no production). This ALMOST makes sense, except that nitrite levels are CLEARLY 0 - and experience of many others maintain an ammonia of 0.
To me, this low level nagging ammonia level is the big mystery. I don't know what info to give or what to look for to explain it. And it seems to be the only phase stopping me from moving forward with my tank creation. Patience? Or evidence of something that i'm missing that requires action to fix some problem? IF the LR has so much die off - why? What can be done to help stabalize it? I'm perplexed on this one.
I am ANXIOUS to get rid of these damsels, and get a percula, tang and wrass -- even start my corals with a green star polyp if ready. However, I do not want to jump the gun to the point of killing these new members into a 'not ready' environment.

 

[ed r]

When your tank has fully cycled, you should have zero ammonia and nitrite. Anyone who tells you expect continuing low levels of ammonia is suspect in the advice department. I would think that your adding the live rock in stages is causing new spurts of ammonia. Only fully cured live rock shipped in water can be safely added without recycling the tank. Fully cured live rock shipped to you overnight in wet paper is no longer cured. I would avoid using additives like Cycle. If you do have measurable amounts of ammonia, you should wait before adding a clean-up crew. You would probably lose most of them anyway.