installing a GFCI Unit

snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Hello guys and gals,
So, I really want to install a GFCI unit in my old 1940s house that has no grounding wires! Can you believe that? I thought I was in luck when I found out that an outlet directly behind the outlet that I want to install the GFCI on was a 3 prong! I thought OH GOOD! I have a grounding wire RIGHT THERE! YAY! and then I opened it up and it didn't have a ground wire. :(
So - I have read all of the instructions that came in the package on how to install a GFCI Unit and it looks like I don't even have to have a ground wire at all. To quote it:
"Connect the grounding wires (only if there is a grounding wire.): Connect a 5-inch bare copper or green 12 or 14AWG wire to the grounding terminal on the GFCI."
If I am reading it correctly, you don't even need a ground wire on a GFCI Unit. I've been doing some research on this on the internet as well and according to NES standard, it is perfectly fine to install a GFCI without a ground.
Does anyone have some advice on if it is ok, if it is bad, if having a ground is absolutely necessary and why... etc. I want to know why you say that not having a ground wire on a GFCI is bad. Back it up... or if it's perfectly fine to do then set my mind at ease.
Thanks!
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
So, I just undid the GFCI outlet in my bathroom - thinking that there might be a ground wire in there - because the GFCI unit is reading "green" for protected. I took the unit out of the wall just to look to see if it had a ground wire and guess what?!
IT DIDN'T HAVE A GROUND WIRE EITHER!
so... I am going to go ahead and say that it's ok to install a GFCI Unit without a ground wire.
Anyone want to say anything different?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///forum/thread/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit#post_3408304
Hello guys and gals,
So, I really want to install a GFCI unit in my old 1940s house that has no grounding wires! Can you believe that? I thought I was in luck when I found out that an outlet directly behind the outlet that I want to install the GFCI on was a 3 prong! I thought OH GOOD! I have a grounding wire RIGHT THERE! YAY! and then I opened it up and it didn't have a ground wire. :(
So - I have read all of the instructions that came in the package on how to install a GFCI Unit and it looks like I don't even have to have a ground wire at all. To quote it:
"Connect the grounding wires (only if there is a grounding wire.): Connect a 5-inch bare copper or green 12 or 14AWG wire to the grounding terminal on the GFCI."
If I am reading it correctly, you don't even need a ground wire on a GFCI Unit. I've been doing some research on this on the internet as well and according to NES standard, it is perfectly fine to install a GFCI without a ground.
Does anyone have some advice on if it is ok, if it is bad, if having a ground is absolutely necessary and why... etc. I want to know why you say that not having a ground wire on a GFCI is bad. Back it up... or if it's perfectly fine to do then set my mind at ease.
Thanks!
GFCI's don't rely on the safety ground wire in order for them to work. They trip when they sense a loss of current between the hot and neutral sides of the device.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Sweet. Confirmation! Thanks.
I was always under the assumption that a "GROUND fault circuit interrupter needed a GROUND wire to GROUND the charge. But that's great to know that it doesn't - and great for others to be aware of as well.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///forum/thread/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit#post_3408322
Sweet. Confirmation! Thanks.
I was always under the assumption that a "GROUND fault circuit interrupter needed a GROUND wire to GROUND the charge. But that's great to know that it doesn't - and great for others to be aware of as well.
The term "ground fault" simply means when current travels where it isn't supposed to. Like through your tank and through you. But yeah you're good to go for an install.
A lot of holder homes were never installed with safety grounds. I'm not sure when it became code probably in the 70's or so. It's there to protect you from dangerous shock if one of your metal appliances has a wire or something come lose and the voltage comes in contact with the metal case like on your fridge, range, light fixture, etc. But it won't protect you completely unless you have a gfci breaker.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
I sneaked it. Actually that pic I think was cause by a piece of faulty equipment. AFCI (arc fault circuit interupter) breakers aren't an all bad idea either. They trip when they detect shorts.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
i've never used either, but have thought about it. I remember either having a detailed discussion awhile ago and it was either Corey or SCSInet that chimed in on that subject as to which was the better choice to use. The problem is if it isn't wired correct down stream from the tripped outlet coul be affected as well.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
That's correct - from what I have been reading - if you place a GFCI on an outlet that is in-line with other outlets and the GFCI trips, it will also cut off all the other outlets that are through that same electrical line. This could be a good or a bad thing in some cases. Just make sure that a GFCI is not in the same line of outlets that powers any life support equipment.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Actually they just cut power to any outlets that are down stream of the gfci, the ones before it on the same circuit remain uneffected. I believe they will protect up to 6 outlets down stream safely. If you want more than that you'd have to install another one or just install a gfci break. If you don't want them to trip other outlets you can hook them up and feed them off of the main circtuit individially instead of daisy chaining them which is how most of your outlets are probably hooked up.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
I know in my next house I am going to have numerous plugs and each plug is going to have a switch on it especially the pumps, skimmers, PH, heater, lights oh I guess everything, LOL and GFCI everything, I have everything protected now.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Your correct Corey that's why I've never used them because I usually have something after that outlet, but I'm going to have to call my brother-in-laws who are master electricians and get more info, but I'm sure there is a way to wire to not affect the outlets after the GFCI.
Al if you look back in the beginning o my build thread I did that exactly for the reason you mentioned. I like being able to just flip the switch to shut the pump or whatever off. Everything usually runs through my controller though and you could easily go into the menu and shut the outlet down on the power bar as well.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Yes there is a way Shawn. Typically you have Aa hot and nuetral from the breaker which feeds power to the first outlet on the circuit which you connect to the top left and right terminals on the receptical. Then you connect another hot and nuetral to the bottom two terminals on the receptical which feeds power to the next outlet inline or downstream they call it daisy chaining. All you do is simply connect you hot and nuetral inside of the box via wire nuts instead of to the receptical. And feed two short wires or jumpers from those connections to feed your gfci. This way when the gfci tips the circuit is left unbroken. Make sense?
 
E

eric b 125

Guest
Snake, my gfci has saved my house on more than one occasion. The first time was when a six-strip nearly caught fire:

The second time was when I was filling my top-off bucket and got caught up in the the price is right. The bucket over flowed and got some plugs wet.
The last time I owed my life to a gfci didnt have anything to do with my tank, but when my girlfriends dog peed on the plug to a window a/c unit while i was sleeping in that room.
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
Be careful messing around in an old home, especially if there were additions or renovations. Old houses can have some messed up wiring. I got full on zapped when I was installing a GFCI. We had turned off the breaker, but there was a crazy wire mixed in there on another breaker. I heard it, felt it and smelled it.
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit#post_3408441
Your correct Corey that's why I've never used them because I usually have something after that outlet, but I'm going to have to call my brother-in-laws who are master electricians and get more info, but I'm sure there is a way to wire to not affect the outlets after the GFCI.
Al if you look back in the beginning o my build thread I did that exactly for the reason you mentioned. I like being able to just flip the switch to shut the pump or whatever off. Everything usually runs through my controller though and you could easily go into the menu and shut the outlet down on the power bar as well.
Yeah basically GFI receptacles can accept two sets of wires on two terminals. The LINE terminals is where the incoming power is placed, and the LOAD terminals are where the outgoing (downstream) receptacles are wired. However, if you do not want the outlets downstream from the GFI to receive GFI protection, simply wire both sets of wires to the LINE terminals. Most GFI receptacles can accept two wires on each terminal, making this pretty easy.
The instructions included with most GFIs oultline this procedure in detail.
To comment on some of the pictures in this thread... it is important for everyone here to understand that a GFI is a "life safety" device, not a "property safety" device. In other words, pictures of burned tanks, power strips, etc... although a GFI may have tripped in those situations, that is purely cooincidental. GFIs are designed to mitigate the risk of ground-fault based electric shocks. Ground faults, that's it. GFIs must always be included as an integral part of any electrical safety plan for a tank, but they are not a "do-all" device that somehow protects from everything.
What I'm saying is that we need to be careful not to get the purposes of various safety devices mixed up because it can lead to a false sense of security. GFIs are no excluse to not use drip loops and basic procedures to avoid receptacles getting wet, for instance.
 
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